The Final Witness

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The Final Witness

Post by BugsySig »

It’s a noir mystery title or something. No announcement of a creative team, but Antos says it’s like True Detective meets Gotham or something.

A detective, a reporter, an arsonist and a superhero have to solve a murder in San Francisco. All they need is a priest and a rabbi!

Sounds like crap to me if you can’t even announce a creative team. We shall see.
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by nycjadie »

Sounds like Dr Mirage to me.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by dornwolf »

BugsySig wrote:It’s a noir mystery title or something. No announcement of a creative team, but Antos says it’s like True Detective meets Gotham or something.

A detective, a reporter, an arsonist and a superhero have to solve a murder in San Francisco. All they need is a priest and a rabbi!

Sounds like crap to me if you can’t even announce a creative team. We shall see.
It sounds exactly like what Marvel and DC have done with murder mysteries. DCs what crap and Marvels hasn’t started yet.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

Imagine my surprise at the latest character being promoted by Heather Antos. It’s all ‘coincidental’ though :roll:

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Chiclo »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:Imagine my surprise at the latest character being promoted by Heather Antos. It’s all ‘coincidental’ though :roll:
Maybe she might get a good writer for it, we don't know yet.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by FormerReader »

:-|

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by greg »

It's the Final WIT-NESS!

---da-da DA-DA---
---da-da-dum-dum-DUMMMMM---

The final wit-ness, oh-ohhhhhh!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jK-NcRmVcw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Anyone ever notice that The Final Countdown lyrics could be the theme song for the original Psi-Lords?)

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by syzhang28 »

#NOTMYVALIANT

I can't believe we went from literally the perfect relaunch of Valiant to now this in just 2 years

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

Chiclo wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:Imagine my surprise at the latest character being promoted by Heather Antos. It’s all ‘coincidental’ though :roll:
Maybe she might get a good writer for it, we don't know yet.
Hopefully we get decent writers on all books in 2020 if anything was learned from 2019. But after Forgotten Queen, Roku, Punk Mambo, Dr Mirage and Livewire I think the female lead characters agenda has been done to death for a while. If the company is profit motivated in any way then this is not the direction to go in. If they’re not profit motivated then what are they in business for?

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by TheeBaldMoose »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Chiclo wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:Imagine my surprise at the latest character being promoted by Heather Antos. It’s all ‘coincidental’ though :roll:
Maybe she might get a good writer for it, we don't know yet.
Hopefully we get decent writers on all books in 2020 if anything was learned from 2019. But after Forgotten Queen, Roku, Punk Mambo, Dr Mirage and Livewire I think the female lead characters agenda has been done to death for a while. If the company is profit motivated in any way then this is not the direction to go in. If they’re not profit motivated then what are they in business for?
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by armlessphelan »

I hope Vita Ayala's underwhelming run doesn't mean Livewire gets put on a shelf. They keep giving Jack Boniface different series and events and he can't sustain a solo. I also loved the War Mother mini from a couple years ago and the I've only read the first Dr. Mirage mini but it was excellent. Faith is due for another ongoing as well.

Valiant's sales problems are largely from a contracting comic market rather than anything the company itself is doing. We're on the edge of another 90s-style collapse so they're diversifying the line to appeal to different demographics rather than relying solely on the same shrinking pool of buyers.

The Final Witness itself may or may not be good, but I'm hoping for the best. After all, I did just read Fallen World and quite enjoyed it, so Valiant isn't by any means making only crap.
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by syzhang28 »

armlessphelan wrote:
Valiant's sales problems are largely from a contracting comic market rather than anything the company itself is doing. We're on the edge of another 90s-style collapse so they're diversifying the line to appeal to different demographics rather than relying solely on the same shrinking pool of buyers.
I want to find something to blame other than Valiant too but the data literally is the opposite of this...

According to the numbers last year was between the best year on record and a top 5 year on record: https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For instance the "Estimated OVERALL North American Market size, including estimates for newsstand comics and book channel TPB sales" which is just print, not digital was the joint highest year on record (records go back 20+ years).

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by BugsySig »

Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by armlessphelan »

syzhang28 wrote:
armlessphelan wrote:
Valiant's sales problems are largely from a contracting comic market rather than anything the company itself is doing. We're on the edge of another 90s-style collapse so they're diversifying the line to appeal to different demographics rather than relying solely on the same shrinking pool of buyers.
I want to find something to blame other than Valiant too but the data literally is the opposite of this...

According to the numbers last year was between the best year on record and a top 5 year on record: https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For instance the "Estimated OVERALL North American Market size, including estimates for newsstand comics and book channel TPB sales" which is just print, not digital was the joint highest year on record (records go back 20+ years).
If you look at the monthly sales, everyone has gone down in units even as dollar amounts rise. Because of Marvel (and sometimes other publishers) raising the prices on first issues for its annual relaunch. Zenescope, Dynamite, Image, etc have all seen huge drops in monthly floppies from even five years ago.

Marvel and DC are both raising prices to compensate for lower sales in the direct market. Maybe the trades are doing well in bookstores, I dunno, but comic shops are struggling and the indies are gonna be dropped before the Big 2 unless you pre-order. Hell, comic prices are so high I only buy (digital) Spawn and Savage Dragon monthly. Everything else waits for Comixology sales.

It is literally not about female characters or minorities and everything about Marvel (and to a lesser extent DC) having predatory business models where the market is flooded with expensive books to take away shelf space from the competition. Maybe if the Valiant books were still relaunch-level quality they would still be selling above 10k, but when even established properties like Vampirella and Witchblade are struggling to find an audience despite critical praise, you have to admit that it's not the fault of women and minorities.
Manga, comics, who cares? They're pretty much the same thing.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by FormerReader »

BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
When you have established characters that you no longer use for a bunch of unknown, uninteresting characters that is a problem. The company is putting out garbage. If Livewire was written by Dysart no one would complain because he is a great of writer. Instead we get more garbage, so think people have a right to complain. Give me good books on the established characters and add in more representative characters over time and I would gladly buy them.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by FormerReader »

BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
When you have established characters that you no longer use for a bunch of unknown, uninteresting characters that is a problem. The company is putting out garbage. If Livewire was written by Dysart no one would complain because he is a great of writer. Instead we get more garbage, so think people have a right to complain. Give me good books on the established characters and add in more representative characters over time and I would gladly buy them.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by BugsySig »

FormerReader wrote:
BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
When you have established characters that you no longer use for a bunch of unknown, uninteresting characters that is a problem. The company is putting out garbage. If Livewire was written by Dysart no one would complain because he is a great of writer. Instead we get more garbage, so think people have a right to complain. Give me good books on the established characters and add in more representative characters over time and I would gladly buy them.
That’s exactly the point I was making. I have no problem with people complaining about the lack of tentpole characters. I have said as much many times since around 2015. That’s a valid criticism. I have a problem with some of the idiotic comments about not needing more female or diverse characters, yada yada yada, when some of the biggest superhero books and movies over the past few years have included Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, and Black Panther.
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by nycjadie »

BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
I don't mind agenda, but Antos is vapid, and can't keep her characters straight. I'm sure she's a lovely person, but if the elevator doesn't go to the top floor....

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by armlessphelan »

BugsySig wrote:
FormerReader wrote:
BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
When you have established characters that you no longer use for a bunch of unknown, uninteresting characters that is a problem. The company is putting out garbage. If Livewire was written by Dysart no one would complain because he is a great of writer. Instead we get more garbage, so think people have a right to complain. Give me good books on the established characters and add in more representative characters over time and I would gladly buy them.
That’s exactly the point I was making. I have no problem with people complaining about the lack of tentpole characters. I have said as much many times since around 2015. That’s a valid criticism. I have a problem with some of the idiotic comments about not needing more female or diverse characters, yada yada yada, when some of the biggest superhero books and movies over the past few years have included Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, and Black Panther.
Honestly, Livewire should've been the bridge to bring everything together because she IS an established character. Been around since the reboot, led two different teams, has an excellent power that makes her top tier... And we got a writer who is at best unseasoned.

I really wanna see War Mother get another series. That character is awesome and we need more than just Rai to rep the future.
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by BugsySig »

nycjadie wrote:
BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
I don't mind agenda, but Antos is vapid, and can't keep her characters straight. I'm sure she's a lovely person, but if the elevator doesn't go to the top floor....
Also valid. Continue...
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by kjjohanson »

greg wrote:It's the Final WIT-NESS!

---da-da DA-DA---
---da-da-dum-dum-DUMMMMM---

The final wit-ness, oh-ohhhhhh!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jK-NcRmVcw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Anyone ever notice that The Final Countdown lyrics could be the theme song for the original Psi-Lords?)
I was hoping your link was this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjeMDvCdrtc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by kjjohanson »

FormerReader wrote:
BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
When you have established characters that you no longer use for a bunch of unknown, uninteresting characters that is a problem. The company is putting out garbage. If Livewire was written by Dysart no one would complain because he is a great of writer. Instead we get more garbage, so think people have a right to complain. Give me good books on the established characters and add in more representative characters over time and I would gladly buy them.
Valiant has hinted at plans for most of the major characters for 2020. I don't get why people have a problem with growing the family of characters. I especially don't get why there are complaints about an editor who many have expressed displeasure with working to launch a new property, as I'm sure those same people would hem and haw that she's going to mess something up with established characters. I've already seen people say they're going to pass on the new Q&W (which Antos is editing) even though it has a creative team that has good buzz.
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by kjjohanson »

armlessphelan wrote:
BugsySig wrote:
FormerReader wrote:
BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
When you have established characters that you no longer use for a bunch of unknown, uninteresting characters that is a problem. The company is putting out garbage. If Livewire was written by Dysart no one would complain because he is a great of writer. Instead we get more garbage, so think people have a right to complain. Give me good books on the established characters and add in more representative characters over time and I would gladly buy them.
That’s exactly the point I was making. I have no problem with people complaining about the lack of tentpole characters. I have said as much many times since around 2015. That’s a valid criticism. I have a problem with some of the idiotic comments about not needing more female or diverse characters, yada yada yada, when some of the biggest superhero books and movies over the past few years have included Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, and Black Panther.
Honestly, Livewire should've been the bridge to bring everything together because she IS an established character. Been around since the reboot, led two different teams, has an excellent power that makes her top tier... And we got a writer who is at best unseasoned.

I really wanna see War Mother get another series. That character is awesome and we need more than just Rai to rep the future.
I really wish they'd just combine all of the 4001 properties into a single epic comic. Not Rai-focused, or focused on any other character. Tell it with Game of Thrones-type storytelling, jumping between different characters' experiences as we see the whole picture unfold.
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.

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Dallow Spicer1
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Posts: 2017
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:19:05 am
Valiant fan since: Mid 90's
Favorite character: X-O
Favorite title: X-O
Favorite writer: V-Ditti & Dysart
Favorite artist: Larosa
Location: United Kingdom
Re: The Final Witness

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
I think you’ve encapsulated Valiant’s problems as they seem to share your mindset. This ‘box ticking’ approach to a business is insane. Imagine someone coming along and telling a Vegetarian restaurant owner that they have to sell meat because X amount of the population eat meat! Oh and also there has to be X amount of Indian dishes, X amount of Chinese dishes etc etc because X amount of the population is this and that. Like any business, the priority should be to provide goods that your customers want. No one is saying Valiant shouldn’t experiment and try to bring in other readers, but it seems like that’s all they have done since the new crew took over.

Every book they put out doesn’t need to (forcibly) represent diversity, that’s not their job, their job is to make books that people want to and will actually buy. Nobody hates women or minorities that’s a silly straw man argument, but giving the customer what appeals to the customer, not asking them to pay $3.99 for some lesson on what you think they should like.

Maybe you need to get over the fact that most comic book readers are white and male. People just want entertainment not lessons.

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nycjadie
Especially "dude." And "balls." Those terms work in the tech industry.
Especially "dude." And "balls." Those terms work in the tech industry.
Posts: 6563
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:38:36 am
Valiant fan since: Solar #1
Favorite character: Rai
Favorite title: Toyo Harada
Location: Seattle
Re: The Final Witness

Post by nycjadie »

I am interested in this book and premise, but I don't hold much hope given the last several books that have come out, and it's pretty clear to me that none of the content is being written for the old Valiant fans. Not anymore. We are not a priority - we aren't even on the map.

I don't think they are creating for general comic readers. Everything is origin, or rethought. There is no character development. It's this new millennial "I want to create everything in my image" approach by starting anew. Alirght, that's cool. But it doesn't work very often.

I read the Witchfinder Ominibus last night by Mike Mignola and others. Holy *SQUEE* man that was good. 4 minis or so with major character development, stories that hook you, and keep you on the seat of your pants. That's what Valiant could be producing. Maybe they will find it with this series. I don't know. I haven't seen it since Warren and Dinesh left, and yes they had some stinkers too. But I saw it in Dr. Mirage, I saw it to a degree in Britannia, I saw it in spades in Divinity/Eternity and had great hopes for Savage.


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