Serious question...how accurate is this article?

[Oxmyx]

https://www-rt-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v ... w-black%2F" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am NOT asking for the accuracy of the opinions conclusions and obvious predetermined bias in the writer.

I am just not following the comics genre at all hardly, except my Valiant, so while I've heard plenty of grumbling, I had thought it was at least partly just belly-acheing, but this article makes me think I've been unaware of some big developments

But if this article is factually accurate, aside from conclusion and opinion, that comes as a surprise

[kjjohanson]

https://www-rt-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v ... w-black%2F

I am NOT asking for the accuracy of the opinions conclusions and obvious predetermined bias in the writer.

I am just not following the comics genre at all hardly, except my Valiant, so while I've heard plenty of grumbling, I had thought it was at least partly just belly-acheing, but this article makes me think I've been unaware of some big developments

But if this article is factually accurate, aside from conclusion and opinion, that comes as a surprise

Considering that the headline begins with a factual error (Iron Man is not a black teen girl; there is a black teen girl that goes by the name Ironheart) I imagine that there are plenty of other errors. While there is an Afro-Latino Spider-man (Miles Morales), he did not replace Peter Parker (except in Marvel's Ultimate line, in which that line's Peter Parker was killed off; but the primary timeline still includes Peter Parker). While there is a Muslim Ms. Marvel, the original Ms. Marvel, Carol Danvers, is still around, but she's taken on the mantle of Captain Marvel.

The truth is that comics has a long history of replacing the person in a uniform (John Walker became Captain America in the '80s, four different characters replaced Superman in his titles in the '90s, just to name a couple). The difference now is that white males are used to seeing characters that look like them as the default, so some white males get butthurt when they have to endure something is a even a little bit "other."

Certainly a lot of the purported reasons that changes were made in the article are conjecture.

[kjjohanson]

Note also: Hal Jordan replaced Alan Scott as Green Lantern.
Note also: Kyle Rayner replaced Hal Jordan as Green Lantern.
Note also: Barry Allen replaced Jay Garrick as Green Lantern.
Note also: Wally West replaced Barry Allen as Green Lantern.
Note also: Hal Jordan replaced Jim Corrigan as the Spectre.
Note also: Jean-Paul Valley replaced Bruce Wayne as Batman.

I could go on a while…

[ckb]

I think the main premise is reversed.

The changes aren't causing the declining sales, the changes were BECAUSE of declining sales. They are an attempt to raise sales. Writers were hired and characters were changed to bring in new readers. It hasn't worked...maybe because it alienated old ones, maybe because the audience is too limited by the new focus, maybe because its just a dying medium. Who knows.

There is little doubt these changes were focused on woke culture and being PC. There is also no doubt there are still plenty of non-PC comics.

And there is plenty of butthurt to go around. The "white male" butthurt at the changes to iconic characters and invasion of PC. The butthurt of the new creators for being under-represented for 100 years and making radical changes. The butthurt of some fans who don't really want something new and just want good stories based on familiar characters. The butthurt of new fans who resent the history of the genre.

The author is correct that the pendulum does swing. He is asserting that we are due to a swing back away from PC. Maybe he's right, maybe not. I would assert that money always drives these decisions eventually.

[kjjohanson]

I think the main premise is reversed.

The changes aren't causing the declining sales, the changes were BECAUSE of declining sales. They are an attempt to raise sales. Writers were hired and characters were changed to bring in new readers. It hasn't worked...maybe because it alienated old ones, maybe because the audience is too limited by the new focus, maybe because its just a dying medium. Who knows.

There is little doubt these changes were focused on woke culture and being PC. There is also no doubt there are still plenty of non-PC comics.

And there is plenty of butthurt to go around. The "white male" butthurt at the changes to iconic characters and invasion of PC. The butthurt of the new creators for being under-represented for 100 years and making radical changes. The butthurt of some fans who don't really want something new and just want good stories based on familiar characters. The butthurt of new fans who resent the history of the genre.

The author is correct that the pendulum does swing. He is asserting that we are due to a swing back away from PC. Maybe he's right, maybe not. I would assert that money always drives these decisions eventually.

I think being under-represented is a legitimate gripe. There's nothing unreasonable about that.

[IMJ]

I think the main premise is reversed.

The changes aren't causing the declining sales, the changes were BECAUSE of declining sales. They are an attempt to raise sales. Writers were hired and characters were changed to bring in new readers. It hasn't worked...maybe because it alienated old ones, maybe because the audience is too limited by the new focus, maybe because its just a dying medium. Who knows.

There is little doubt these changes were focused on woke culture and being PC. There is also no doubt there are still plenty of non-PC comics.

And there is plenty of butthurt to go around. The "white male" butthurt at the changes to iconic characters and invasion of PC. The butthurt of the new creators for being under-represented for 100 years and making radical changes. The butthurt of some fans who don't really want something new and just want good stories based on familiar characters. The butthurt of new fans who resent the history of the genre.

The author is correct that the pendulum does swing. He is asserting that we are due to a swing back away from PC. Maybe he's right, maybe not. I would assert that money always drives these decisions eventually.

I think being under-represented is a legitimate gripe. There's nothing unreasonable about that.

I think representation in comics can be a good thing. However, claims that groups are shut-out as cause for concern are widely not valid. The representation goes where the financial culture goes. There's no under-representation in rap because that culture was built on the interest of a certain demographic. The same could be said for entertainment in rock music given the roots of that medium - the few minorities that love it, do it - if there were more then there'd be more.

Basically if more minorities had a valid interest in comics then you'd probably see more material go that way. I'm cutting this post short of elements that I foresee would negate future rebuttal's head on, but I think it's pretty clear that there has been wider representation in comics for a very long time. Much of what is going on across the last several years is a product of virtue signaling or lowest common denominator thinking. Much of what has been going on has not been about actual representation as much as misguided or misplaced anger - sounds like that butthurt came first before the "white male butthurt" came.

Representation in comics is okay. Hostile infiltration based on anger agenda or virtue signaling is not okay. Anger agenda creates a lie and virtue signaling creates a false premise.

[kjjohanson]

I think the main premise is reversed.

The changes aren't causing the declining sales, the changes were BECAUSE of declining sales. They are an attempt to raise sales. Writers were hired and characters were changed to bring in new readers. It hasn't worked...maybe because it alienated old ones, maybe because the audience is too limited by the new focus, maybe because its just a dying medium. Who knows.

There is little doubt these changes were focused on woke culture and being PC. There is also no doubt there are still plenty of non-PC comics.

And there is plenty of butthurt to go around. The "white male" butthurt at the changes to iconic characters and invasion of PC. The butthurt of the new creators for being under-represented for 100 years and making radical changes. The butthurt of some fans who don't really want something new and just want good stories based on familiar characters. The butthurt of new fans who resent the history of the genre.

The author is correct that the pendulum does swing. He is asserting that we are due to a swing back away from PC. Maybe he's right, maybe not. I would assert that money always drives these decisions eventually.

I think being under-represented is a legitimate gripe. There's nothing unreasonable about that.

I think representation in comics can be a good thing. However, claims that groups are shut-out as cause for concern are widely not valid. The representation goes where the financial culture goes. There's no under-representation in rap because that culture was built on the interest of a certain demographic. The same could be said for entertainment in rock music given the roots of that medium - the few minorities that love it, do it - if there were more then there'd be more.

Basically if more minorities had a valid interest in comics then you'd probably see more material go that way. I'm cutting this post short of elements that I foresee would negate future rebuttal's head on, but I think it's pretty clear that there has been wider representation in comics for a very long time. Much of what is going on across the last several years is a product of virtue signaling or lowest common denominator thinking. Much of what has been going on has not been about actual representation as much as misguided or misplaced anger - sounds like that butthurt came first before the "white male butthurt" came.

Representation in comics is okay. Hostile infiltration based on anger agenda or virtue signaling is not okay. Anger agenda creates a lie and virtue signaling creates a false premise.

Considering that rap is a genre within music, and comics is an entire art form, I think that's a poor analogy. Telling stories is universal.

[slym2none]

No one's gonna mention the Flash examples above were labelled "Green Lantern"? I am guessing kjjohanson was on a roll.

(:



-slym

[lorddunlow]

No one's gonna mention the Flash examples above were labelled "Green Lantern"? I am guessing kjjohanson was on a roll.

(:



-slym

I thought maybe it was just a Berenstein/Berenstain thing and I was the only one who knew about Flash. Thanks for clearing that up. Either that or we both come from that universe...

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

[TheFerg714]

All of that is very opinionated, but there was a time when almost every single Marvel hero was replaced by a diversity showcase character. Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, and more were all taken off the board and replaced, and it all happened within a year.

[Chiclo]

I think ckb was on the money about these moves trying to increase sales.

Fanboys are pretty touchy about changes to our beloved characters. We say we want new and different stories but when something changes, we cry foul.

Are comics an art form? Are comics an industry? Yes. Publishers strike a balance between art and industry. The larger publishers, Marvel and DC, have to strike a different balance between comics as an art form and comics as an industry than a smaller publisher like Valiant, and these medium-sized companies have a different balance than small press publishers, who focus more on comics as an art form. Marvel and DC are both owned by much larger media conglomerates, Marvel is part of Disney and DC is part of Time Warner, and in both cases, the real money from these characters and intellectual properties isn't in publishing - but publishing is how these IPs are preserved as proprietary [if you aren't familiar with why DC cannot publish a comic featuring Captain Marvel under the title of Captain Marvel, it offers some insight here]. So, for Marvel and DC, comics is but a part of what is going on, and not the biggest part. A writer of Superman is somewhat limited in the stories he can tell; DC is unlikely to allow a Superman writer to tell a story where Superman goes crazy and kills off the other heroes [Irredeemable by Boom Studios - the first 2 or 3 arcs are really good] because DC has an interest in keeping Superman the way he is. There are occasional big changes to Marvel and DC books but rarely do they last long. kjj offered a list of characters that replaced other characters - Hal Jordan replaced Alan Scott as Green Lantern, who was replaced by Kyle Rayner. All three are found in comics published today. Jean-Paul Valley replaced Bruce Wayne as Batman for what, a year? Where is Jean-Paul today? The more things change, the more they stay the same at these publishers. Publishers know well that these changes can entice new readers and sell more comics and at times, publishers have overused these big changes in comics to the point that these changes aren't so big anymore.

It is not a new thought that there should be more representation in comic characters. The characters introduced in Giant Size X-Men #1 are an example of this - publishers made the decision to have varied origins for these characters in the hopes that people from those countries or people groups might take an interest in that character and start reading the comics; Nightcrawler is from Germany, Colossus is from Russia, Storm is from East Africa, Wolverine is from Canada, Thunderbird is a native American, Sunfire is from Japan, Banshee is from Ireland. They created new characters, some of which are among the best known in comics.

What was unusual about what was happening at Marvel a few years ago is that there were a LOT of these changes in a short amount of time. Normally these changes are spread apart and come one at a time over years. Some of these changes were in legacy characters, Jane Foster getting the hammer and took over the Thor book as a lady Thor. Sam Wilson was raised from relative obscurity before the movies to take over as Captain America. Miles Morales might have taken over the main Spiderman book, maybe not? I don't really pay attention to Spiderman. Then some new characters were created, like Gwenpool [neat idea, kind of a mess of a character] and America, a gay latina who dressed kind of like Captain America, and America was her first name. Kind of like with the current Valiant, the focus was on the characters and defining them by intersectional traits, not on writing good stories. Like pretty much any change, these were trying to draw in new readers. Marvel had billion dollar movies sharing titles with books that sold 20,000 to 50,000 copies a month. They wanted to transfer some moviegoers to comic readers and decided to try something new. Some older fans felt slighted or even rejected by the publishers. Some fans had questions about the motives behind these changes and started asking questions. Some fans started getting mouthy on social media. Some creators started getting mouthy back.

Thus came comicsgate. Few things in this world are more distasteful than comicsgate, gamergate and any other movement trying to correspond with them. The thing that really gets me about comicsgate is that it began by some good questions that needed to be asked and then it got taken over by internet personalities. They protested these now short-lived changes in comics by meangirling on Twitter and today they spend hours upon hours circle-jerking each other on YouTube about how persecuted they are. And the anti-comicsgate people just meangirl them right back and spend hours upon hours on YouTube talking about how horrible and racist they all are. Pretty much any article written about them, either side, just makes references to internet personalities - relatively few of which are actually comic creators, most are just fans with webcams - without any explanation and reads like notes passed between junior high girls about what a slut Jamie Delmonaco is or some such vapid and empty nonsense. The most prominent creator on the comicsgate side is Ethan Van Sciver, often abbreviated EVS. Van Sciver is a decent comic artist who came to prominence around 10 years ago drawing Green Lantern during the time when they were expanding the lantern corps to the different colours. He felt slighted during the time when intersectional superheroes were on the rise and he got vocal at the right time. He took to crowdfunding like kickstarter and indiegogo and raised hundreds of thousands of dollars to self-publish new comics of an old creator-owned comic he had done called Cyberfrog. You can pretty much guess what Cyberfrog is about, the kind of thing a couple of 12 year old boys would come up with after playing video games and drinking Monster energy drinks for 2 days straight. And, hundreds of thousands of dollars later, he still can't keep a deadline. Seriously, Ethan Van Sciver, get off the cross, we need the wood.

This is around the time Heather Antos, now editing for Valiant, became prominent. She was brought to the middle of comicsgate not for her work, but because of a picture wherein she and several other young women who worked at Marvel, had gone out to have milkshakes together and posted a photo on social media.

Spock said of Mirror Universe Kirk that he was "brutal, savage, unprincipled, uncivilized, treacherous; in every way splendid examples of Homo sapiens, the very flower of Humanity." Perhaps that disgusting bloom is exhibited to a lesser extent in this crass and artless internet thuggery that is comicsgate.

[Oxmyx]

They replaced Bruce Wayne!?!? How am I just now hearing about this?

no

Note also: Hal Jordan replaced Alan Scott as Green Lantern.
Note also: Kyle Rayner replaced Hal Jordan as Green Lantern.
Note also: Barry Allen replaced Jay Garrick as Green Lantern.
Note also: Wally West replaced Barry Allen as Green Lantern.
Note also: Hal Jordan replaced Jim Corrigan as the Spectre.
Note also: Jean-Paul Valley replaced Bruce Wayne as Batman.

I could go on a while…

[Oxmyx]

Wow well thought out replies...thank you for all the information and all the effort. I have found it illuminating.

I really appreciate confirmation of my suspicion that the article contained substantial inaccuracies, regardless of intent or bias.

But speaking of bias, as soon as the article spoke of SJWs as a slur I knew it was in no way objective.

Question...about IronMan being a teen girl, which isn't accurate I see, I am under the impression IronMan was always a teen, except in the Marvel movies. Am I right? I very much am guessing.

Is the assertion in the article correct about moviegoers who come to printed comics going to find almost nothing recognizable from the movies?

[Oxmyx]

I think the main premise is reversed.
Anger agenda creates a lie and virtue signaling creates a false premise.

Considering that rap is a genre within music, and comics is an entire art form, I think that's a poor analogy. Telling stories is universal.

I'm gonna have to side with CKB on this. Rap it seems to me is a genre yes but so it comics a genre of literature/storytelling/art.
Each with a certain demographic.

[Oxmyx]

Pretty much any article written about them, either side, just makes references to internet personalities - relatively few of which are actually comic creators, most are just fans with webcams - without any explanation and reads like notes passed between junior high girls about what a slut Jamie Delmonaco is or some such vapid and empty nonsense.

Wow Chiclo, you are a very complex and interesting person. I'm glad I ran into you (so to speak).

[Chiclo]

You flatter me, sir. I'll try not to let it go to my head.

I have some pretty strong thoughts about these jokers who have taken it upon themselves to try to ruin my hobby so when I get on a rant, I get going. It's part of why I decided to leave Twitter and social media.

[kjjohanson]

No one's gonna mention the Flash examples above were labelled "Green Lantern"? I am guessing kjjohanson was on a roll.

(:



-slym

Yeah, I was copying and pasting and forgot to swap in the right character names.

[kjjohanson]

They replaced Bruce Wayne!?!? How am I just now hearing about this?

no

Note also: Hal Jordan replaced Alan Scott as Green Lantern.
Note also: Kyle Rayner replaced Hal Jordan as Green Lantern.
Note also: Barry Allen replaced Jay Garrick as Green Lantern.
Note also: Wally West replaced Barry Allen as Green Lantern.
Note also: Hal Jordan replaced Jim Corrigan as the Spectre.
Note also: Jean-Paul Valley replaced Bruce Wayne as Batman.

I could go on a while…

For a time, in the '90s.

After posting I realized a longer list could be made with the various replacements of Robin.

[kjjohanson]

I think the main premise is reversed.
Anger agenda creates a lie and virtue signaling creates a false premise.

Considering that rap is a genre within music, and comics is an entire art form, I think that's a poor analogy. Telling stories is universal.

I'm gonna have to side with CKB on this. Rap it seems to me is a genre yes but so it comics a genre of literature/storytelling/art.
Each with a certain demographic.

Comics is certainly a way of telling a story, like literature, movies, etc. But then, rap music is a way of doing that as well. As an artform, comics is unlike all of the others. (Scott McLoud's Understanding Comics is a really good read for understanding comics as an art form distinct from the others).

[kjjohanson]

Question...about IronMan being a teen girl, which isn't accurate I see, I am under the impression IronMan was always a teen, except in the Marvel movies. Am I right? I very much am guessing.

I don't follow Marvel, but as far as I know, he's still an adult in the comics. Although back in the '90s, Marvel did replace an adult Tony Stark with a teen Tony Stark for a while. Apparently the adult Tony Stark had been corrupted by Kang and had been working as a double agent, so a pre-corruption teen Tony Stark was recruited to fight him and ultimately replaced him. Until the Heroes Reborn storyline, anyway, when they brought back adult Tony.

[TheFerg714]

Question...about IronMan being a teen girl, which isn't accurate I see, I am under the impression IronMan was always a teen, except in the Marvel movies. Am I right? I very much am guessing.

Idk about Tony being a teen; I've always seen him as a 40-something while I've been reading comics.

However, it is actually completely accurate that Iron Man was replaced by a teen girl and I'm not sure why people are leading you in the wrong direction on this one. Alongside all the other heroes that were replaced by diverse heroes, Tony was "killed" and replaced by "Ironheart" who became the main character of the mainline Iron Man series.

[kjjohanson]

Question...about IronMan being a teen girl, which isn't accurate I see, I am under the impression IronMan was always a teen, except in the Marvel movies. Am I right? I very much am guessing.

Idk about Tony being a teen; I've always seen him as a 40-something while I've been reading comics.

However, it is actually completely accurate that Iron Man was replaced by a teen girl and I'm not sure why people are leading you in the wrong direction on this one. Alongside all the other heroes that were replaced by diverse heroes, Tony was "killed" and replaced by "Ironheart" who became the main character of the mainline Iron Man series.

The headline of the article is literally "Iron Man is now a black teen girl…" That is not correct.

[Oxmyx]

Question...about IronMan being a teen girl, which isn't accurate I see, I am under the impression IronMan was always a teen, except in the Marvel movies. Am I right? I very much am guessing.

Idk about Tony being a teen; I've always seen him as a 40-something while I've been reading comics.

However, it is actually completely accurate that Iron Man was replaced by a teen girl and I'm not sure why people are leading you in the wrong direction on this one. Alongside all the other heroes that were replaced by diverse heroes, Tony was "killed" and replaced by "Ironheart" who became the main character of the mainline Iron Man series.

This is fascinating. So if I pick up an Iron Man comic off the shelves, it'll be about Ironheart as the central character?

[TheFerg714]

This is fascinating. So if I pick up an Iron Man comic off the shelves, it'll be about Ironheart as the central character?

Tony came back eventually, but yea, that's how it was for about a year.

The headline of the article is literally "Iron Man is now a black teen girl…" That is not correct.

It's all semantics. Iron Man isn't technically a black teen girl, but the title character of the premiere Iron Man series was replaced by a black teen girl.

[ckb]

Question...about IronMan being a teen girl, which isn't accurate I see, I am under the impression IronMan was always a teen, except in the Marvel movies. Am I right? I very much am guessing.

Idk about Tony being a teen; I've always seen him as a 40-something while I've been reading comics.

However, it is actually completely accurate that Iron Man was replaced by a teen girl and I'm not sure why people are leading you in the wrong direction on this one. Alongside all the other heroes that were replaced by diverse heroes, Tony was "killed" and replaced by "Ironheart" who became the main character of the mainline Iron Man series.

This is fascinating. So if I pick up an Iron Man comic off the shelves, it'll be about Ironheart as the central character?

Yes, but it's still a bit "fake newsy" to say IronMan is a teen girl. It would be more accurate to say what you said above... the central character of the Invincible IronMan title was IronHeart for about a year. At the end of 2018 she got her own title. Like I said originally, more right than wrong, not all-right. And the storyline was about the search for the missing Tony Stark. Certainly putting things in a light favorable to the argument being made.

There was a ton of renumbering and volumes and whatever going on. Eventually with IM 593 it began going back to a Tony Stark title when they went back to the historical numbering.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Invincib ... _Man_Vol_4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The above was basically IM 58?-592.