When did Bloodshot enemy unit Chainsaw really first appear

[kjjohanson]

Because I hate these arguments, I bought a bunch of both issues when Dinesh told me via PM. I don't believe anyone knew this back in March.

Exactly! No one knew or even cared until Dinesh said something. Both issues were considered wholly forgettable and unimportant really until then. Now there's two different narratives: Prior, wiki's commonly listed it as issue #2, and post Dinesh it's now assumed issue #3. Which one is right? No one knows, and I guess that's a testament to the power of Dinesh because the market has suddenly shifted (at least as far as numerous postings on eBay) claiming it's issue #3 as a result. What will be interesting to see is if all of a sudden people start listing issue #2 as the first appearance in the future (kind of like EW #4 for Bloodshot, or X-O #4 for Jack Boniface). There's at least one listing where someone has both and just says first appearances of Chainsaw.

That's probably mine. Back when the 5-movie deal was first announced, I assumed that the storylines would roughly follow the first 3 story arcs of Bloodshot and Harbinger, so I started buying 2 & 3 when I saw them, since I wasn't sure which book would end up being the hot one, the cameo or the first full. Seems if I sell them as a set that's the best way to go.

For what it's worth, I don't see that there's any controversy over which is the first appearance. Chainsaw is clearly the team that appears at the end of 2. As to which one will be the long-term winner, only time will tell that for sure. Historically there are examples of first appearances similar to this where demand for a full appearance or a cameo varies.

[hulk181man]

It is all good, Markie, as far as I am concerned. There are only 2 CGC 9.8 copies right now, so if the market goes in that direction, there has to be some value there since there are only 2 slabs out there. If it ends up being issue #2, then I have a beautiful $30 book.

I'm sure there's other 9.8s out there not submitted yet. That said, the Acclaim books had print runs closer to what we see from VEI today, the paper quality used was not great, and a lot of people passed up the Acclaim stuff as garbage. So while theres going to be more 9.8s showing up, I think it's safe to say the quantity wont be staggering, so from that view the book will have value if Chainsaw is considered important enough and the market agrees on 1st app, then you may be right on for the price...I just think people won't necessarily realize it until closer to the movie or after it's out.

I think you have a gem, I just dont know if theres enough people yet willing to go for it. Best of luck, hope it gets picked up, seriously

Not all of us consider the Acclaim stuff garbage (most do) i do think I have at leat 3-4 9.8 quality copies of this book in storage I just have to find them

whatever the case demand will always out weigh supply on this book if it becomes something in the market

-Brian

What BTE said, there was quality in Acclaim. I have a few nice copies of both issues as well but to solve the controvery it should be # 2 --- only because that book contains my first ever fan letter.

I'm willing to autograph books for you guys to make your copies more valuable!

[iggy101us]

What BTE said, there was quality in Acclaim. I have a few nice copies of both issues as well but to solve the controvery it should be # 2 --- only because that book contains my first ever fan letter.

I'm willing to autograph books for you guys to make your copies more valuable!

No more of this #180 vs #181 controversy . . . Hulk's 1st appearance is in Bloodshot Vol 2 #2.

[nycjadie]

I distinctly remember Chainsaw as a baby was noted in Bloodshot 8.

[Elveen]

1st Chainsaw = BS vol 2 #2.
1st full Chainsaw = BS vol 2 #3

[Ryan]

What BTE said, there was quality in Acclaim. I have a few nice copies of both issues as well but to solve the controvery it should be # 2 --- only because that book contains my first ever fan letter.

I'm willing to autograph books for you guys to make your copies more valuable!

I've been looking through my collection recently, and I agree. I would even say the overall quality of Acclaim/VH2 writing and art surpasses the overall quality of post-Unity VH1. My subjective armchair quarterback reasons for why VH2 didn't succeed:

1) the overall comics market was cratering due to the destructive business practices during the comics explosion (91-93)

2) Valiant readers/speculators were leaving in droves due to the declining quality of the books and the repeated practice of over-hyping and then under-delivering on event after event. The 2 biggest being Deathmate and Birthquake. Huge hype, big names, but ultimately delivering a sloppy product with paper-thin stories. This conditioned the remaining comic book audience to never believe the hype when it comes to Valiant.

3) Hit-and-run big name creators. Garth Ennis/Ashley Wood (and others) could have been a great team if they weren't on 4 issue contracts. This led to so-so stories with no engagement from the 'stars' and lesser known creators having to come in afterward to clean up the messes, made the universe seem poorly planned with no unifying direction or tone.
It's no wonder the only VH2 books that have had lasting appeal (Bloodshot, Q&W) had creators that were committed to an ongoing run on the books.

4) as said above, very little unifying direction or tone. A lot of humor and silly or childish books next to more serious action books. That can work, but here it seemed scattershot. No crossovers, no traditional team book, no character seemed like a flagship character. The new X-O was generic. Characters were overall too different from VH1, threw the baby out with the bathwater.

To stay on topic, I will hold on to both Bloodshot 2 and 3 for now

[jmatt]

To stay on topic, I will hold on to both Bloodshot 2 and 3 for now

Nice recovery! Whew!

That was a good post, all kidding aside.

[markie7235]

What BTE said, there was quality in Acclaim. I have a few nice copies of both issues as well but to solve the controvery it should be # 2 --- only because that book contains my first ever fan letter.

I'm willing to autograph books for you guys to make your copies more valuable!

I've been looking through my collection recently, and I agree. I would even say the overall quality of Acclaim/VH2 writing and art surpasses the overall quality of post-Unity VH1. My subjective armchair quarterback reasons for why VH2 didn't succeed:

1) the overall comics market was cratering due to the destructive business practices during the comics explosion (91-93)

2) Valiant readers/speculators were leaving in droves due to the declining quality of the books and the repeated practice of over-hyping and then under-delivering on event after event. The 2 biggest being Deathmate and Birthquake. Huge hype, big names, but ultimately delivering a sloppy product with paper-thin stories. This conditioned the remaining comic book audience to never believe the hype when it comes to Valiant.

3) Hit-and-run big name creators. Garth Ennis/Ashley Wood (and others) could have been a great team if they weren't on 4 issue contracts. This led to so-so stories with no engagement from the 'stars' and lesser known creators having to come in afterward to clean up the messes, made the universe seem poorly planned with no unifying direction or tone.
It's no wonder the only VH2 books that have had lasting appeal (Bloodshot, Q&W) had creators that were committed to an ongoing run on the books.

4) as said above, very little unifying direction or tone. A lot of humor and silly or childish books next to more serious action books. That can work, but here it seemed scattershot. No crossovers, no traditional team book, no character seemed like a flagship character. The new X-O was generic. Characters were overall too different from VH1, threw the baby out with the bathwater.

To stay on topic, I will hold on to both Bloodshot 2 and 3 for now

Sadly, the Acclaim books might have seen more popularity if it wasn't for some of the crap quality that came out of Valiant post Unity.

There was still a period of time after Unity where the quality and books were good. Off memory, here are some runs I think still stood well for awhile:
-Magnus Robot Fighter, up until the early 20's
-Solar up until the early 20's
-Eternal Warrior, through around issue 27
-Archer & Armstrong, only went through issue 25ish as I recall and I think these were all decent (been awhile)
-Bloodshot early books were fairly good, but towards the end it got all sorts of weird and dumb imo
-Harbinger through issue 25
-Shadowman, this one was on and off good throughout. unlike some of the others, this series had good, then some bad, then good, etc
-X-0 I never actually finished this series, but I know it was good through early teens

It was the last 10-20 issues of most of these books in VH1 where quality really suffered and story lines just became bad all around. But there were some good stories and critical Valiant characters that appeared after Unity. In fact, some of the most important ones in VEI introduced after Unity: Bloodshot (EW #4 is still one of my favorite Valiant stories), Ninjak, Master Darque, HARD Corp, Livewire (if you want to consider Livewire from Harby #15 really the Livewire we know now), Doctor Mirage (same as Livewire, beyond name, has no resemblance to the Dr Mirage now), I guess Rampage depending, and Ivar are all several off the top of my head.

But some of the characters really got their distinct nature we see in VEI from the Acclaim books. Bloodshot especially in VEI can really trace his origins to the Acclaim run more than the VH1 run. Same could be said for Shadowman, or at least where the Voodoo nature of the character became more prevalent and I believe this is also where the Deadside first comes into play.

[nycjadie]

Bloodshot was the best title by far. I mean, come on! Uzzi and his Killer Clown Commandos! For multiple issues!

[Ryan]

Sadly, the Acclaim books might have seen more popularity if it wasn't for some of the crap quality that came out of Valiant post Unity.

There was still a period of time after Unity where the quality and books were good. Off memory, here are some runs I think still stood well for awhile:
-Magnus Robot Fighter, up until the early 20's
-Solar up until the early 20's
-Eternal Warrior, through around issue 27
-Archer & Armstrong, only went through issue 25ish as I recall and I think these were all decent (been awhile)
-Bloodshot early books were fairly good, but towards the end it got all sorts of weird and dumb imo
-Harbinger through issue 25
-Shadowman, this one was on and off good throughout. unlike some of the others, this series had good, then some bad, then good, etc
-X-0 I never actually finished this series, but I know it was good through early teens

It was the last 10-20 issues of most of these books in VH1 where quality really suffered and story lines just became bad all around. But there were some good stories and critical Valiant characters that appeared after Unity. In fact, some of the most important ones in VEI introduced after Unity: Bloodshot (EW #4 is still one of my favorite Valiant stories), Ninjak, Master Darque, HARD Corp, Livewire (if you want to consider Livewire from Harby #15 really the Livewire we know now), Doctor Mirage (same as Livewire, beyond name, has no resemblance to the Dr Mirage now), I guess Rampage depending, and Ivar are all several off the top of my head.

No doubt there were still a lot of good comics post-Unity. Coming off of Unity they were the industry darlings (look at the Wizard top 10), people were dying to read the next Valiant comic. But the quality and attention to detail quickly eroded even though the money was finally pouring in. Some of those later books are just atrocious.

One example, look at The Visitor # 13. If you weren't reading at the time, you wouldn't know the immense amount of hype and promotion for The Visitor series and the big mystery about who the mysterious alien Visitor was. #13 comes out promising to finally reveal the secret, and it has some big printing error that makes all the art look extremely sloppy and muddy. Instead of trying to fix it, they just print it like that then it turns out The Visitor is just a future Pete Stancheck with a UPC code on his face? Why was he dressed up like an alien? Doesn't matter, who cares, they already got everybody's money

But some of the characters really got their distinct nature we see in VEI from the Acclaim books. Bloodshot especially in VEI can really trace his origins to the Acclaim run more than the VH1 run. Same could be said for Shadowman, or at least where the Voodoo nature of the character became more prevalent and I believe this is also where the Deadside first comes into play.

I like some things about VH2 Bloodshot or Shadowman, but I kinda wish VEI took more from the VH1 versions. I like Bloodshot better when he's less powered, just faster than normal with a healing factor and can read people's computers, not an indestructible zombie. I also think Shadowman works better as a 'New Orleans Batman', street level with some light powers. Throw in some weird Voodoo stuff and horror elements for sure, but the Voodoo high fantasy with deadside and monsters gets too silly for me.

[markie7235]

Sadly, the Acclaim books might have seen more popularity if it wasn't for some of the crap quality that came out of Valiant post Unity.

There was still a period of time after Unity where the quality and books were good. Off memory, here are some runs I think still stood well for awhile:
-Magnus Robot Fighter, up until the early 20's
-Solar up until the early 20's
-Eternal Warrior, through around issue 27
-Archer & Armstrong, only went through issue 25ish as I recall and I think these were all decent (been awhile)
-Bloodshot early books were fairly good, but towards the end it got all sorts of weird and dumb imo
-Harbinger through issue 25
-Shadowman, this one was on and off good throughout. unlike some of the others, this series had good, then some bad, then good, etc
-X-0 I never actually finished this series, but I know it was good through early teens

It was the last 10-20 issues of most of these books in VH1 where quality really suffered and story lines just became bad all around. But there were some good stories and critical Valiant characters that appeared after Unity. In fact, some of the most important ones in VEI introduced after Unity: Bloodshot (EW #4 is still one of my favorite Valiant stories), Ninjak, Master Darque, HARD Corp, Livewire (if you want to consider Livewire from Harby #15 really the Livewire we know now), Doctor Mirage (same as Livewire, beyond name, has no resemblance to the Dr Mirage now), I guess Rampage depending, and Ivar are all several off the top of my head.

No doubt there were still a lot of good comics post-Unity. Coming off of Unity they were the industry darlings (look at the Wizard top 10), people were dying to read the next Valiant comic. But the quality and attention to detail quickly eroded even though the money was finally pouring in. Some of those later books are just atrocious.

One example, look at The Visitor # 13. If you weren't reading at the time, you wouldn't know the immense amount of hype and promotion for The Visitor series and the big mystery about who the mysterious alien Visitor was. #13 comes out promising to finally reveal the secret, and it has some big printing error that makes all the art look extremely sloppy and muddy. Instead of trying to fix it, they just print it like that then it turns out The Visitor is just a future Pete Stancheck with a UPC code on his face? Why was he dressed up like an alien? Doesn't matter, who cares, they already got everybody's money

But some of the characters really got their distinct nature we see in VEI from the Acclaim books. Bloodshot especially in VEI can really trace his origins to the Acclaim run more than the VH1 run. Same could be said for Shadowman, or at least where the Voodoo nature of the character became more prevalent and I believe this is also where the Deadside first comes into play.

I like some things about VH2 Bloodshot or Shadowman, but I kinda wish VEI took more from the VH1 versions. I like Bloodshot better when he's less powered, just faster than normal with a healing factor and can read people's computers, not an indestructible zombie. I also think Shadowman works better as a 'New Orleans Batman', street level with some light powers. Throw in some weird Voodoo stuff and horror elements for sure, but the Voodoo high fantasy with deadside and monsters gets too silly for me.

I know what you mean about some of the VH2 stuff, but at the same time I think it was a smart direction since otherwise you get people saying Bloodshot is just a wolverine/punisher hybrid and Shadowman is just Batman from New Orleans. Using more of the VH2 stuff helps distinguish and separate these characters more from historic and storied Marvel and DC characters. I mean, originality in comics is going to be fairly low since most things have been done before....I mean look at Deadpool, originally he was a knock off Deathstroke with the wise-cracks of Spider-man, or Thanos was a knock off Darkseid. In many ways though Marvel further defined and refined both to the point you could argue (especially after movies) that Deadpool and Thanos are better known now than the characters they were inspired from. In the case of BS and Shadowman though, you need to differentiate, because there's 0% chance either character will be more well known or beloved than Wolverine or Batman

[Ryan]

I know what you mean about some of the VH2 stuff, but at the same time I think it was a smart direction since otherwise you get people saying Bloodshot is just a wolverine/punisher hybrid and Shadowman is just Batman from New Orleans. Using more of the VH2 stuff helps distinguish and separate these characters more from historic and storied Marvel and DC characters. I mean, originality in comics is going to be fairly low since most things have been done before....I mean look at Deadpool, originally he was a knock off Deathstroke with the wise-cracks of Spider-man, or Thanos was a knock off Darkseid. In many ways though Marvel further defined and refined both to the point you could argue (especially after movies) that Deadpool and Thanos are better known now than the characters they were inspired from. In the case of BS and Shadowman though, you need to differentiate, because there's 0% chance either character will be more well known or beloved than Wolverine or Batman

Good points, it's hard to make any wholly new or original heroes anymore. I do appreciate how VEI has tried to blend elements from all the different versions.

Mostly I just don't like too much magic, and that was one of the things that made VH1 so unique. Limited use of 'magic' and all the supernatural stuff scientifically explained and kept as consistent as possible. Like hard sci-fi. It would be almost impossible for Marvel or DC to pull off that level of consistency, but Valiant is small enough to attempt it.