Character legacies

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SlyTrooper
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Character legacies

Post by SlyTrooper »

I saw this brought up briefly somewhere else, but why are most Valiant characters not unique? They generally seem to be the latest in a long chain of predecessors. Let's see how many I can think off of the top of my head:

- Bloodshot (started during the early 20th century with various versions up until Vietnam and then resulting in Ray)
- Rai (10th incarnation of Father's children)
- Ninjak (Part of the ninja program)
- XO (there are many different armours in the universe)
- Shadowman (passed down through Jack's family)

As much as it doesn't diminish my interest in these characters, when you look at it in a list like this it just seems like lazy writing. When you look at Marvel or DC characters there are legacies too, but these span out from the characters themselves rather than the other way around.

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Re: Character legacies

Post by markie7235 »

SlyTrooper wrote:I saw this brought up briefly somewhere else, but why are most Valiant characters not unique? They generally seem to be the latest in a long chain of predecessors. Let's see how many I can think off of the top of my head:

- Bloodshot (started during the early 20th century with various versions up until Vietnam and then resulting in Ray)
- Rai (10th incarnation of Father's children)
- Ninjak (Part of the ninja program)
- XO (there are many different armours in the universe)
- Shadowman (passed down through Jack's family)

As much as it doesn't diminish my interest in these characters, when you look at it in a list like this it just seems like lazy writing. When you look at Marvel or DC characters there are legacies too, but these span out from the characters themselves rather than the other way around.
This obviously wasn't the original intent, but part of Valiant's history, better or worse, has always been about development of their heroes instead of focusing on villains and conflict between heroes and villains. In most cases, villains exist for many of the heroes simply to further develop the heroes (with Darque and Harada being two prominent exceptions that stand on their own). Given this focus on development of the heroes, that means you can go two ways: Dig into their origins or further change and morph the hero.

VH1 for the most part did more of the latter, by changing, aging, or building the hero into the future. VEI on the flip side seems to have spent more time on digging into the past of our heroes. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you feel about it), that often means creating a legacy out of the mantle the hero wears (ie, prior shadowmen, prior Rai's, etc).

The original Rai and Bloodshot had actually a pretty interesting origin detailed in Rai # 0, where the "blood of heroes", what's used to make the Rai's, was actually Bloodshot's blood infused with the nanites. So in that vein, Bloodshot was actually the original Rai in a sense. Not sure if this origin for Rai still exists in VEI, but it was a pretty cool detail in VH1 that aside from being mentioned was never explored on how it went from Bloodshot after Ax stole his blood to ultimately create the first Rai.

I guess I don't mind the building on a character's origin but you always run the risk that when constantly trying to create something new and interesting in the character's background that you could break continuity or make the origin so convoluted that it loses meaning. In the case of Shadowman in VEI with the Loa spirit, the past Shadowmen works and makes sense. If the origin of Rai in VEI is similar to the VH1 origin, this also makes sense. I don't particularly care for the Bloodshot legacy, as Bloodshot was suppose to be somewhat unique, hence why his blood was so special in the creation of the Rai's. As far as Ninjak, my personal opinion is this new angle feels like a forced way to explain why they put a "K" at the end of Ninja...because let's be honest, the name Ninjak and character itself was Valiant in the 90's capitalizing on the sudden wave of popularity of ninja's and japanese culture in comics. Other examples were giving Wolverine a somewhat japanese story and ninja training, Deadpool to some extent fell into this bucket also, One of the most popular Eternal Warrior covers from the time (issue #4) played off the oriental martial arts theme. There's plenty of other examples, so Ninjak was very much a product of the 90's and the movement in comics at that time, so now it's trying to move him away from that and explain it in a way so he's not such a pop-culture reference of the past.

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Re: Character legacies

Post by nycjadie »

We can add Eternal Warrior (at least his job), and Geomancer on the list as well.

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Re: Character legacies

Post by markie7235 »

nycjadie wrote:We can add Eternal Warrior (at least his job), and Geomancer on the list as well.
The Geomancer yes, but technically is there an Eternal Warrior "legacy"?

I guess I'm not sure, they've never mentioned who served the Geomancer's prior to Gilad in either VH1 or VEI. If we're talking specifically about Gilad as the Eternal Warrior, well not really a "legacy" character since it's the same person all throughout history. So technically speaking, the Eternal Warrior refers specifically to Gilad (as he is the warrior who never dies, thus eternal), and he would not be a "legacy" character as there was not an "eternal" warrior prior to him (that we've ever been told about). And actually, if I recall the Book of Death: Legends of the Geomancer story correctly, I don't think there was a defender of the Geomancer/Earth prior either, as that story line was the origin of the first Geomancer and implied Gilad was the first, and thus only defender so far. Based on his immortal nature, and stories from 4001 AD, it's also safe to assume there's never been one since (or if there is, again, we've not heard mention of it).

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Character legacies

Post by BugsySig »

Wouldn’t “Timewalker” be considered a legacy at this point as well?

Not sure I’d count XO as a legacy. That’s like saying Superman is a legacy because there are other Kryptonians. But there are other XOs in the future (his daughter, XO 4001) who would be.

As for VH1 vs VEI: Shadowman was a legacy in VH1, too, as was the Geomancer. And Bloodshot WAS the legacy originator for the Rai’s in a way. So the only real difference would be Ninjak and the historical Bloodshots...both of which seem to be the legacy of Kind-T, as are the prior incarnations of Unit-Y.
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Re: Character legacies

Post by ShadowTuga »

I think the legacy aspect is one of the strongest Valiant... strengths. :hm:
Batman, Superman and Spider-Man now, are all legacy characters, but in name only. There's ll never be anyone other than Bruce, Clark or Peter being the Main character of the legacy bunch. They might change for a year or so, (Death of Superman, Knightfall/Morrison's run) but at the end, they always come back.

I love the fact that THIS Rai can actually "die" and be replaced in a story-natural way. X-O the same, and Bloodshot is the ultimate legacy- in fact, when Ray's story is told in its entirety, bring BS back in a new, COMPLETELY different host, Please. Bloodshot can be an amazing Legacy. Like, for real, character changing once in a while in continuity, like Doctor Who. 8-)

Ninja-K is just a legacy character for 2 years now. Colin was pretty much Unique until this program thing.

Since VEI Jack at one point was a total *SQUEE*, I actually wanted a New host for the Loa. :?
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Re: Character legacies

Post by TheFerg714 »

Surprisingly, I think Valiant has utilized the legacy aspect of it's heroes very well, but on the surface I can't stand the idea. Okay, there were proto-Bloodshot's before Ray. That makes sense. It also makes sense that Rai has had prior incarnations. In fact, all of these "make sense," but at some point I kind of have to ask myself if this is just Kindt's whole schtick. It honestly feels a little lazy some times. Unity is probably the one "franchise" that kind of grinds my gears. Why does there need to be super-teams, made up of the same type of heroes? It came off as super lame, and I refuse to read that awful #0 issue again.

All that said, I'm just b***hing. I love that these characters didn't just pop out of nowhere. They're really just the current incarnations of a storied past full of other super people.
BugsySig wrote:both of which seem to be the legacy of Kind-T, as are the prior incarnations of Unit-Y.
:funnypost: Good one.
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Re: Character legacies

Post by Ryan »

TheFerg714 wrote:Surprisingly, I think Valiant has utilized the legacy aspect of it's heroes very well, but on the surface I can't stand the idea. Okay, there were proto-Bloodshot's before Ray. That makes sense. It also makes sense that Rai has had prior incarnations. In fact, all of these "make sense," but at some point I kind of have to ask myself if this is just Kindt's whole schtick. It honestly feels a little lazy some times. Unity is probably the one "franchise" that kind of grinds my gears. Why does there need to be super-teams, made up of the same type of heroes? It came off as super lame, and I refuse to read that awful #0 issue again.

All that said, I'm just *SQUEE*. I love that these characters didn't just pop out of nowhere. They're really just the current incarnations of a storied past full of other super people.
BugsySig wrote:both of which seem to be the legacy of Kind-T, as are the prior incarnations of Unit-Y.
:funnypost: Good one.
Lol I've never been a big fan of Ninjak or his silly name, but Ninja-K just makes it even sillier and to make a whole series based on a bad pun is facepalm

I don't think character legacies are in and of themselves bad. They can be done really well like the Grendel series, but if it's done all the time and becomes a writing crutch it can dilute the characters.

Most of the superheroes have had different incarnations at some point. It's just usually after many years or decades of stories about the original character. I also think this is what happens when one guy writes so many of the books at once while also having multiple creator owned series.

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Re: Character legacies

Post by markie7235 »

Speaking of legacies & origins, one thing I miss from VH1 Valiant in the VEI universe is "THE" origin story.

One of the coolest stories in pre-unity Valiant that started in Solar #1 and finished in Solar #10 was the origin of the Valiant universe. It was subtle and not exactly explicit, but basically the Valiant universe and people with "powers" were a result of Solar re-creating the world after destroying it. This time though, he added in extra touches, basically making the world more like the comics he grew up that inspired him to become Solar in the first place.

Again, not super clear, but if you read that origin story in that sense, Harbingers, Geomancers, Eternal Warrior, etc, none of it existed until after Solar re-created the world/universe. Thus, Solar actually did become "God" in a manner of speaking. It actually provided an explanation for why people with abilities that defied science existed....though it never really answers how Solar came to be aside from he created a "wish" machine.

Still, I miss that origin story in VEI. Obviously it can't be Solar, but I had almost hoped Divinity would fill that void....But that wouldn't make much sense because 1) Divinity clearly didn't appear until after many of the other characters were already running around on the planet and 2) While they've never really listed out the scope or limits of Divinity's abilities, I certainly get the impression that while his power is other-worldly, I don't see it as "godly" in the same sense that Solar's power was. Divinity's power seems more like the ability to warp time and reality than it really is to create/destroy, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

Still, a nice origin story of the Valiant universe as a whole would be awesome, and might even tie in/explain why some of these characters have legacies in the first place. But that's one thing I felt VH1 did a great job of tying everyone together into the greater whole...they all owed their existence to an extent to Solar, for better or worse. It also made Erica an even more sympathetic villain (aside from the physical and sexual abuse at the hands of her father) in the sense that she viewed the creation of these anomolies by Solar as wrong and wanted to wipe it all out and start new...but inline with her vision, which would also be equally skewed most likely

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Re: Character legacies

Post by The Dirt Gang »

markie7235 wrote:Speaking of legacies & origins, one thing I miss from VH1 Valiant in the VEI universe is "THE" origin story.

One of the coolest stories in pre-unity Valiant that started in Solar #1 and finished in Solar #10 was the origin of the Valiant universe. It was subtle and not exactly explicit, but basically the Valiant universe and people with "powers" were a result of Solar re-creating the world after destroying it. This time though, he added in extra touches, basically making the world more like the comics he grew up that inspired him to become Solar in the first place.
Right on! :thumb:
BugsySig wrote:both of which seem to be the legacy of Kind-T, as are the prior incarnations of Unit-Y.
:lol:
Ryan wrote: Lol I've never been a big fan of Ninjak or his silly name, but Ninja-K just makes it even sillier and to make a whole series based on a bad pun is facepalm
I was a fan of Kindt's art going back to Pistolwhip and his storytelling prior to coming to VEI. However, I agree with you here. Even outside of Valiant he's using this schtick DEPT H. Once is good enough for me and I've really not cared for it in the Valiant universe.
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Re: Character legacies

Post by Shadowman99 »

SlyTrooper wrote:I saw this brought up briefly somewhere else, but why are most Valiant characters not unique? They generally seem to be the latest in a long chain of predecessors. Let's see how many I can think off of the top of my head:

- Bloodshot (started during the early 20th century with various versions up until Vietnam and then resulting in Ray)
- Rai (10th incarnation of Father's children)
- Ninjak (Part of the ninja program)
- XO (there are many different armours in the universe)
- Shadowman (passed down through Jack's family)

As much as it doesn't diminish my interest in these characters, when you look at it in a list like this it just seems like lazy writing. When you look at Marvel or DC characters there are legacies too, but these span out from the characters themselves rather than the other way around.
I don't think this generalisation holds the water that it first appears to. When listed, 'legacy' characters consist of:

Bloodshot
Rai (potentially not includable: Rai's legacy was born in the Bloodshot programme)
Ninjak
Geomancer
Shadowman
HARD Corps (as a collective group)
Gen 0(?)

But non-legacy characters consist of:
Aram
Archer
Mary Maria
Gary the Fish
Gilad
Ivar
Neela Sethi
Neela's dinosaur pal (forgot her name)
The Savage
War Mother
Aric (multiple armours doesn't count imo, there's only one Aric and the story focuses on him, not all the other armours)
Quantum
Woody
The Potato Car
The Goat
Thomas Edison
The Armour Hunters
The Bounty Hunters
Mr. Twist
Baron Samedi
Master Darque
Sandria Darque
Punk Mambo
Roku
Dr. Mirage
Hwen Fong
Rampage
Immortal Enemy
Antonia Axia
The Harbinger Kids
Harada
Bleeding Monk
Solomon
Sunlight on Snow
Dogbreath (or whatever he was called)
Abram
Mouska
The entire supporting cast of Eternity
I could go on...

Lazy writing? Hardly. The number of non-legacy characters by far outweighs the 'legacy' characters, whichever way you try to look at it.
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