Dysart’s sets the record straight on Harbinger

DirtbagSailor · Post by **DirtbagSailor** » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:18:07 pm

Josh Dysart posted today on the Valiant Comic Fans Facebook Page, which I have cut and pasted below for those who are interested.

Hey, everyone. I never post here and only respond when I've been tagged because I want the readers to have their own experience and to express their opinions about the work without having to worry about the creator's feelings and all that stuff.

But over and over I see people online repeat a story about my attempt to launch a second Harbinger book that just isn't true and that I think does a disservice to everyone involved, including the very lovely Rafer Roberts, who I have a lot of respect for. So I thought I'd set the record straight here, and if you see this misinformation being reported elsewhere, you can now set the record straight there as well. Cool?

I keep seeing that Rafer and I had competing pitches for a second Harbinger book and that Rafer's won. This is not how it happened, though I have no doubt that Rafer could easily beat me in a pitch war.

This is what actually happened. Warren, who I love like a brother, and I were very much in disagreement over the direction in which to take Harbinger after Death of a Renegade. I couldn't give him a pitch that would satisfy him. I wasn't competing with anyone. For months it was just Warren and I trying to work out where to take this book next. I didn't like his ideas and he didn't like mine. I didn't want to repeat myself. I felt like we had really done something interesting with it that first go around and that to keep it the same kind of story and book just wouldn't be interesting to me. I won't be sharing my take here, now, because I think it's unfair to Rafer to talk about a speculative story that I never had to go through the hard work of executing. Any description I give here would be seen in the best possible light, and will not be an accurate representation of what you would've actually gotten.

Suffice to say, Warren didn't think he could sell what I was cooking. And maybe he was right. Warren is quite good at his job. Maybe you guys would've hated it. I don't know. I only know that if I was going to keep doing the book it was going to have to be something very different from what it was before. We agreed that we weren't coming to any middle-ground and I walked away. I went off to work for the World Food Programme for a while and then we started developing Imperium, which was totally different than what I wanted to do with Harbinger.

Rafer's pitch didn't happen for more than a year after that, if I remember correctly, and to what degree Warren and he worked on that pitch, I have no idea, but I was long out of the picture.

Our Harbinger series was as much a product of Warren as it was of me. Warren may have been one hundred percent right about my pitch. Either way, it makes me uncomfortable to see people lionize what I might have done. Me doing more Harbinger was simply no longer an option at Valiant. I was done with the story, and it was time for someone else to have a go. I agreed with this and have never wished Rafer anything but the best. It's very hard work relaunching that book, even I couldn't get it done. Rafer deserves a lot of credit and I'm excited to read his new comic.

That's the real story.

BugsySig · Post by **BugsySig** » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:32:15 pm

As far as I’m concerned, after his run on Harby, Warren should have just given him a blank check to run with. His Harby was great. Imperium was great. I have no doubt anything else he would have done would’ve been great. Too bad we will likely never see him back at VALIANT.

Nairbe · Post by **Nairbe** » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:43:45 pm

BugsySig wrote:As far as I’m concerned, after his run on Harby, Warren should have just given him a blank check to run with. His Harby was great. Imperium was great. I have no doubt anything else he would have done would’ve been great. Too bad we will likely never see him back at VALIANT.

Completely agree with this. I do know from a Slack conversation with Dinesh that they had some regrets killing Flamingo. Maybe Dysart wanted to continue removing old members/focus on new? Either way, I would have been ALL IN.

TheFerg714 · Post by **TheFerg714** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:40:10 am

It's cool that he's being civil about it and giving Roberts credit, but I think he's sort of missing the point.

I can't speak for everyone, but when I had said that Dinesh and co. chose Roberts over Dysart, I didn't mean that they literally sat down and had to decide between two pitches. Because really, VEI did choose Roberts over Dysart. It might not have been so cut-and-dry, but that's exactly what happened.

ilzuccone · Post by **ilzuccone** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:51:29 am

TheFerg714 wrote:when I had said that Dinesh and co. chose Roberts over Dysart, I didn't mean that they literally sat down and had to decide between two pitches. Because really, VEI did choose Roberts over Dysart. It might not have been so cut-and-dry, but that's exactly what happened.

Not necessarily. The back and forth Dysart and Warren had tells me they most likely wanted Dysart. I'm an artist. I work in TV animation. Not comics I know but a pitch is a pitch etc. It's very common for good talent to walk away from a job because of the direction the job is going (in fact i just did that!

i'm no good but I try). A creative has to pick and choose carefully. This is how we work our way up the ladder so to speak. So Dysart isn't interested in writing the book valiant wants and walks. Valiant still needs a writer on the book. So valiant hires another writer. They didn't choose one or the other. they chose a direction and found talent that would execute it for them. i'm not sure if this is coming across the way i want it. i'm on 8mg of that sweet legal weed.

TheFerg714 · Post by **TheFerg714** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:06:07 am

ilzuccone wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote:when I had said that Dinesh and co. chose Roberts over Dysart, I didn't mean that they literally sat down and had to decide between two pitches. Because really, VEI did choose Roberts over Dysart. It might not have been so cut-and-dry, but that's exactly what happened.
Not necessarily. The back and forth Dysart and Warren had tells me they most likely wanted Dysart. I'm an artist. I work in TV animation. Not comics I know but a pitch is a pitch etc. It's very common for good talent to walk away from a job because of the direction the job is going (in fact i just did that! i'm no good but I try). A creative has to pick and choose carefully. This is how we work our way up the ladder so to speak. So Dysart isn't interested in writing the book valiant wants and walks. Valiant still needs a writer on the book. So valiant hires another writer. They didn't choose one or the other. they chose a direction and found talent that would execute it for them. i'm not sure if this is coming across the way i want it. i'm on 8mg of that sweet legal weed.

I'm sorry, but they did make a choice. I understand that VEI had a vision in mind, but they could have went with Dysart if they wanted. Now, it's up in the air as to whether that was a good idea or not, but seeing the final product and the s**t show that is Harbinger Wars II, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it might not have been the best decision they've ever made.

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:48:05 am

Thanks for sharing! Don't think I'd heard that rumor but this does make me very curious about Dysart's pitch.

jxm640 · Post by **jxm640** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:04:00 am

TheFerg714 wrote:
ilzuccone wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote:when I had said that Dinesh and co. chose Roberts over Dysart, I didn't mean that they literally sat down and had to decide between two pitches. Because really, VEI did choose Roberts over Dysart. It might not have been so cut-and-dry, but that's exactly what happened.
Not necessarily. The back and forth Dysart and Warren had tells me they most likely wanted Dysart. I'm an artist. I work in TV animation. Not comics I know but a pitch is a pitch etc. It's very common for good talent to walk away from a job because of the direction the job is going (in fact i just did that! i'm no good but I try). A creative has to pick and choose carefully. This is how we work our way up the ladder so to speak. So Dysart isn't interested in writing the book valiant wants and walks. Valiant still needs a writer on the book. So valiant hires another writer. They didn't choose one or the other. they chose a direction and found talent that would execute it for them. i'm not sure if this is coming across the way i want it. i'm on 8mg of that sweet legal weed.
I'm sorry, but they did make a choice. I understand that VEI had a vision in mind, but they could have went with Dysart if they wanted. Now, it's up in the air as to whether that was a good idea or not, but seeing the final product and the s**t show that is Harbinger Wars II, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it might not have been the best decision they've ever made.

While I agree with the sentiment of what you have said, Warren Simons needed to make sure that all of the books aligned with the big picture that Valiant is trying to paint.

It is better that VEI went with Roberts to fulfill their vision for the universe as opposed to getting Dysart to write something that he didn't fully commit to.

TheFerg714 · Post by **TheFerg714** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:13:50 am

jxm640 wrote:While I agree with the sentiment of what you have said, Warren Simons needed to make sure that all of the books aligned with the big picture that Valiant is trying to paint.

It is better that VEI went with Roberts to fulfill their vision for the universe as opposed to getting Dysart to write something that he didn't fully commit to.

I disagree strongly. In any superhero shared universe, from Valiant to the MCU, you have to have a balance between creativity and structure; the creators and the studio/management. Valiant is usually very good at making these decisions, but when it came to Harbinger, they should have trusted Dysart and let him do what he wanted. Now, if sales completely tanked, I would understand finding a new direction, but they shouldn't hire someone just because they can cowtow to what the higher-ups want. They need to be hiring creative, imaginative people to do their job, and working around them.

ilzuccone · Post by **ilzuccone** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:41:22 am

TheFerg714 wrote:I'm sorry, but they did make a choice. I understand that VEI had a vision in mind, but they could have went with Dysart if they wanted. Now, it's up in the air as to whether that was a good idea or not, but seeing the final product and the s**t show that is Harbinger Wars II, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it might not have been the best decision they've ever made.

VEI could not have gone with dysart if they wanted because dysart didn't want to. imagine you are offered a job. the job has nothing to do with where you want your career to go. imagine that job might actually delay advancement. you don't take it and it goes to someone else. would you say they chose that person over you? probably not because your input had a lot to do with the job going to someone else.

TheFerg714 wrote: you have to have a balance between creativity and structure; the creators and the studio/management. Valiant is usually very good at making these decisions, but when it came to Harbinger, they should have trusted Dysart and let him do what he wanted. Now, if sales completely tanked, I would understand finding a new direction, but they shouldn't hire someone just because they can cowtow to what the higher-ups want. They need to be hiring creative, imaginative people to do their job, and working around them.

Ah. ok. i read this post after typing up the above. yeah i think our (mild) disagreement comes from a lack of understanding the job market creatives work in. I agree fully there should be a balance between creativity and structure. There simply is not and never will be. VEI writes the checks. the balance always tips in the direction of the money. hiring people just because they can kowtow to what the hire ups want is exactly how it all works.

But kowtowing is oversimplifying also. The writer they got might actually be very excited about the direction. ....

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:58:23 pm

The whole thing is a bummer. I understand Warren's reasons but I would love too have seen what Dysart imagined. He was just getting warmed up.

possumgrease · Post by **possumgrease** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:06:43 pm

depluto wrote:The whole thing is a bummer. I understand Warren's reasons but I would love too have seen what Dysart imagined. He was just getting warmed up.

you can say that again.

kinggirlfriend · Post by **kinggirlfriend** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:01:18 pm

Dysart is being far too kind to Rafer and to editorial.

I wonder how much of it hinged on killing Gen Zero? So many wasted opportunities. HW2 being lackluster only adds insult to injury.

TheFerg714 · Post by **TheFerg714** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:25:01 pm

ilzuccone wrote:VEI could not have gone with dysart if they wanted because dysart didn't want to. imagine you are offered a job. the job has nothing to do with where you want your career to go. imagine that job might actually delay advancement. you don't take it and it goes to someone else. would you say they chose that person over you? probably not because your input had a lot to do with the job going to someone else.

Not really sure where you're getting this from. It sounds to me like Dysart had an idea in mind for a continuation of his Harbinger story. I'm sure, if VEI had given him the go-ahead, Dysart would have went ahead and written more Harbinger stuff for them, even if he did have plans for his future.

Ah. ok. i read this post after typing up the above. yeah i think our (mild) disagreement comes from a lack of understanding the job market creatives work in. I agree fully there should be a balance between creativity and structure. There simply is not and never will be. VEI writes the checks. the balance always tips in the direction of the money. hiring people just because they can kowtow to what the hire ups want is exactly how it all works.

But kowtowing is oversimplifying also. The writer they got might actually be very excited about the direction. ....

You say you agree that there should be a balance, but then you immediately turn around and say nope, screw the balance, it's all about what VEI wants. I'm sorry, but I just disagree. I understand that it's a business and everyone has to make money, but when given the opportunity, they should trust their creators rather than keeping to a stringent view of what they want from their universe. The Valiant U would feel much more organic if they let creators do what they want (within reason) and work around them.

I just don't understand how you can argue this point when you can clearly see what happens when the studio has a vision and hires someone specifically to execute it. Yea, of course, sometimes it works out, but this time it didn't... in like the worst way possible.

The Chosen 1 · Post by **The Chosen 1** » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:22:50 am

I was always under the impression that best idea wins. So if the idea that Josh wanted to go ahead wasn't considered best idea, then the EIC has decided to go with other ideas.

This sort of goes against the whole "DMG is going to destroy Valiant". Sounds like Josh was out of Valiant before DMG finalised their take over.

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:46:57 am

One thing that consistently impresses me about Josh Dysart is his integrity and this is just another example.

We keep talking about how good these guys were at writing, their job, but Warren is also really good at his. On this one, I am going to trust that Warren made the right call, no matter how much I think I would have liked to read what Dysart wanted to do next.

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:04:45 am

Chiclo wrote:One thing that consistently impresses me about Josh Dysart is his integrity and this is just another example.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:11:56 am

There definitely has to be give and take between what the editors and leadership want to do with the characters and what the writers want. Writers are hired to bring their skills at telling interesting and entertaining stories, but editorial should be working together to guide things in the right direction.

I'm definitely a pre-Unity homer, so take my opinion with some grains of salt

I read the first 10 or so VEI Harbingers, but I couldn't really get into it. Don't remember specifics now, I just remember one thing I didn't like was the main artist who always drew people with weird fat faces.

I'm looking back at it now, so correct me if I'm wrong. Looks similar to lot of the VEI titles, critically acclaimed with some hardcore fans but unable to catch on with a larger audience. Just looking at a few of the sales numbers, Harbinger #25 which was a double sized anniversary 'death of a renegade' only hit 8,766 on Comichron. That seems pretty low. Then the next month a re-launched Harbinger: Omegas #1 only does 8,316. That's kind of baffling.

The point is, looking from the outside, just continuing on the same path didn't look to be building a sustainable audience. It makes sense that editorial was looking for a new direction. Like I said I haven't read most of them, so I'm not making a value judgement, just looking at it from a business perspective.

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:54:49 pm

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:55:16 pm

Not sure how
Much of this is known....

But they wanted Dysart to do Shadowman after his Harby run was done.

jxm640 · Post by **jxm640** » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:55:26 am

Elveen wrote:Not sure how
Much of this is known....

But they wanted Dysart to do Shadowman after his Harby run was done.

I didn't know this but, I don't think that would have been a good move.

I just can't picture Dysart's take on the mythology.

Joshua · Post by **Joshua** » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:05:21 pm

Well, it doesn't help that others have gone around spreading their own agendas for why Rafer got the book and Josh didn't. I know I had seen a lot of it pop up on Facebook pages.

It also seems like a lot of stuff on Renegades got changed by editorial. Robertson had pages for things that never happened and I thought it sounded like they changed how things were planned. While not a great run, I do think there were some good issues in it. I for sure thought that first issue was great

grendeljd · Post by **grendeljd** » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:08:52 am

The Dirt Gang wrote:
Chiclo wrote:One thing that consistently impresses me about Josh Dysart is his integrity and this is just another example.

grendeljd · Post by **grendeljd** » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:23:10 am

possumgrease wrote:
depluto wrote:The whole thing is a bummer. I understand Warren's reasons but I would love too have seen what Dysart imagined. He was just getting warmed up.
you can say that again.

I'll say that again!

To me it's a great shame that they didn't take a chance on trusting Dysart further with whatever he was going to do. I get it though - if Warren got cold feet on whatever Dysart was pitching, he probably felt he had good reason.

I think the earliest days of VEI were filled with a lot of quality books because they were willing to take more chances with modernizing the interpretations of the characters & seeing what happens. I recall many creators commenting in social media about how much they liked that (Dysart among them).

As time has marched on, it seems like they've become a little more static with each title. I'm really generalizing that, it's not true across the board but I'd say it feels like there was a shift in approach at some point - many characters get "reset to zero" in some conceptual way each time a series gets relaunched, and the broader continuity is minimalized more often than not.

In general, I still think the books are entertaining but some substance is lacking compared to the vibe of the early relaunched line. At least, for me it is. I'm still a fan here, it's just that my expectation level of what I'm going to read in a Valiant comic has fallen off.

possumgrease · Post by **possumgrease** » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:08:56 pm

Not to get too far off topic, but it seems to me that all the titles have stopped advancing the plot. We're just spinning in the past and learning that everyone is from a whole line of ones like them or else we've taken the character off the playing board entirely.

Legacy:
Ninjak (not unique, one in a line of others)
Shadowman, (not unique, one in a line of others)
X-O (not unique, just one of many)
Bloodshot (not unique, one in a line of others)

Off the Board:
Harbinger/renegades/generation zero (the story is trickling, plus now there's this alpha and some other dumb *SQUEE*)
Archer & Armstrong (off the board for now, but that was a mercy killing)
Eternal Warrior (I truly forgot. He's in some place that is not the deadside and is not eternity and is not the faraway and is not in Armstrong's satchel --where ever it is, it's not in print)
Rai
Timewalker

Early VEI were building towards things, all advancing.

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Dysart’s sets the record straight on Harbinger

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