The Beginning of the End?

[ckb]

While I totally agree with you, I feel obligated to point out that the "old days" didn't end well for Valiant or comics in general.

But the reason it didn't end well for the original Valiant had nothing to do with variant covers and gimmicks. It had everything to do with the fact the books just weren't that great anymore. They lived and died by the quality of their product.

It's important to remember that!! When you look at VH1 Valiant you have like ~700 books and a grand total of ~30 variants over ~6 years. Even if you look at their first three years after the superhero titles started the total number of variants is something like 15-20!

[GammaJosh]

Remember the old days when Valiant was creating a HUGE buzz in the secondary market, when Valiant filled Wizard's top 10 hottest books, leading to more readers and increased sales, and they had NO (or very very few counting the Golds) variant covers, and it was all because they were just really great comics? "Oh, but today's marketplace is different wah wah wah." Only because we're making it different.

I disagree completely. The market back then was totally different, and those days aren't coming back. The reader demographics were different, one magazine held massive influence over the market, and there were swarms of adults buying huge numbers of books because they thought they would pay off their mortgages with their comics investments. The Wizard-enthralled kids and speculator adults that fed that buzz are gone. I and every other kid my age was completely under the spell of Wizard magazine and became interested in anything that Wizard wrote about. I'm pretty sure that was how I found out about Valiant. And as much as the undeniable quality of those early books fed the growth of the company, the market bubble was also largely responsible for what happened.

[lorddunlow]

OK, I think I understand what you are saying better now. I still think that having the extra sales numbers up front is probably better for Valiant than having the collector buzz, and having a bunch of unsold copies on the market for far less than cover price might actually be a good thing. Maybe someone who wouldn't try a Valiant comic for $3.99 will take the plunge for $1.00.

I am not worried about Valiant being done for at all. I wouldn't be surprised if the comics were planned to be a loss leader all along. It's all about the licensing and mass media potential.

I actually think Ed addressed the dollar bin issue many months ago. He stated he hated the idea of a dollar bin, and hated to see VEI books being put in dollar bins (or quarter bins), as just being in a dollar bin gives the impression that a book sucked. It's really the reciprocal to idea that a strong demand in the back issue market can drive people to try a book. If you see it in the dollar bin with all of the other crap that nobody wanted to buy and retailers are stuck trying to unload for whatever they can get for it, then you automatically start associating the titles with poor quality. It's not necessarily logical, but I think VEI books filling dollar bins is worse for their image and subsequent growth as a company than the few who would buy them and decide they like them. Those people probably wouldn't add much to VEI's bottom line anyway because they would probably continue to dollar bin dive to get their books from VEI - why pay $4 a pop when you can get 4 times as much bang for your buck if you wait a few months?

[Aram]

I and every other kid my age was completely under the spell of Wizard magazine and became interested in anything that Wizard wrote about. I'm pretty sure that was how I found out about Valiant. And as much as the undeniable quality of those early books fed the growth of the company, the market bubble was also largely responsible for what happened.

was?

I'm still trying to collect them all.. can't get away even after a decade!

For a few years I know I spent every month reading that sucker from cover to cover, even reviewing the prices page by page to see what was trending.

[lorddunlow]

I and every other kid my age was completely under the spell of Wizard magazine and became interested in anything that Wizard wrote about. I'm pretty sure that was how I found out about Valiant. And as much as the undeniable quality of those early books fed the growth of the company, the market bubble was also largely responsible for what happened.

was?

I'm still trying to collect them all.. can't get away even after a decade!

For a few years I know I spent every month reading that sucker from cover to cover, even reviewing the prices page by page to see what was trending.

Me too. When I pulled my longboxes out of the garage (I know - the horror!) when we moved 4 years ago, I pulled out my old Wizards as well. I read through the Villains special and the Valiant special and soaked in the nostalgia.

[paradise]

I disagree completely.

I am with you. BTW, I Thought I was done with this conversation, but the stuff I just read from Heath, and sorry if I am blunt, shows a complete lack of understanding of the 1990s market and today's market.

This is what happened in the 90s (I was there, selling books). Valiant titles sold pretty mediocre by those days standards, probably percentage wise worse than they are doing now, compared to top sellers. Then Gareb Shamus, the owner of Wizard magazine, as well as a retail comic book store, run by his mom, decided to invest in Valiant books, and, in COMPLETE conflict of interest, started marking them up. This, along with other similar efforts by Shamus, caused the crazy boom in Valiant's print runs, which doubled and tripled monthly, with VERY LITTLE new readership added. Once he withdrew his support, after selling a ton of books for crazy prices, and once people realized they could not sell their Bloodshot #6 for anything, the "investors" pulled out rather drastically, and without any additional readers, the print runs plummeted. I would even say that readers had NOTHING to do with this, at that time, even terrible Valiant was better than most crap on the market.

That market was unique, and can never happen again. There is no authority that people follow blindly, like Wizard was. I sold more copies of Wizard in the 90s than most of my comics. That means EVERYONE was reading the stupid thing. They were buying it, ripping the bag, and looking through the price guide while in store, to see what was Red and what was Blue. People followed Gareb's advice blindly, not realizing he created the prices that they were seeing on their books.

This is a different market. There are collectors, and even investors, and there is nothing wrong with it, because most of them these days are doing it differently, going after media properties, severely under ordered books that have potential to become the next WD. They are not blindly buying every book by the publisher that's HOT in huge numbers. You should see the stacks of boxes I find in front of my store on semi-regular basis, with TONS of early Image and Valiant, in bags, 20 per issue. These people were buying blindly, hundreds of thousands of copies. You know many people who did that here on this site. Was that healthy? NO.

Most of my customers are readers, that's why SAGA and EAST WEST and LAZARUS are so big, selling more than most Marvel & DC books. Sex Criminals is another one that is building subs every month, because it's SOOOO good, not because it's worth a ton.

But what peeves me off the most is that some people are Narcissistic enough to think they know better than the professionals at Valiant, Marvel, DC, and many other publishers, who have years and years of experience, know what makes the market tick, talk to retailers and fans, spend millions of dollars to go to cons and judge what works. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to see fans of the product and publisher, who'd stuck around for years earning for it to come back, make gloomy predictions and accuse the publisher of doing it ALL wrong, rubs me the wrong way. I say this as a fan, not as a retailer, even though my two decades behind the counter, and my well developed relationships within the industry are known to most.

By the way, how many here have realized yet that Valiant is doing EXCEPTIONALLY well based on this simple fact. EVERY SINGLE PUBLISHER out there who is doing well does it with Licensed properties, or HUGE Names. Dynamite, Boom, Dark Horse, IDW, and if you really think, Marvel & DC, are all dealing in really well known licenses that you don't need to SELL. GI JOE does not need to be explained, neither does Batman. Image Comics is the only publisher dealing in original content, but guess what, 3-4 years ago, they were in deep *SQUEE*, unitl Kirkman got invited to come in and bring his friends along, and got Brian K. Vaughn, Mark Millar, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison, Frank Cho and a few others to do books there. In a reader market, those are bigger "characters' than Spider-Man and Batman. Which btw proves my point. In the 90s, content was irrelevant, Rob Liefeld made millons, and Spawn (awful book and concept) was one of the top selling books. Collector's and Investors. Now I sell more copies of Lazarus, a dry and dirty sci fi crime book, than most Marvel books, and more copies of Saga, a weird adult only rated R book, than ALL other titles, and ONE COPY AT A TIME

Valiant is the only publisher doing it with their own characters, largely unknown to a new modern reader, and is selling MORE per title than IDW, Boom (except for Adventure Time), Dark Horse (except for Star Wars, which is now gone).

Now my final word on "the right strategy". I agree 100% with what Valiant is doing, what every publisher these days wants and SHOULD try to do, that is:

GET AS MANY COPIES OF YOUR BOOKS INTO EACH AND EVERY COMIC BOOK SHOP AND TRY TO MAKE RETAILER LOOK AT THEIR INVENTORY AND DECIDE TO GET BEHIND THIS AWESOME PRODUCT WHICH THEY HAVE A LOT OF AND, IF THEY COULD SELL MORE, WOULD MAKE MORE MONEY. GIVE THEM VARIANTS, EXTRA DISCOUNTS, 3D BOOKS, RETURNABILITY AND WHATEVER ELSE TO LOAD THEM WITH PRODUCT, AND BY HAVING PRODUCT, DESIRE TO SUPPORT THE PUBLISHER. Any publisher doing anything other than that is doing it WRONG.

[tchalla8]

I disagree completely.

I am with you. BTW, I Thought I was done with this conversation, but the stuff I just read from Heath, and sorry if I am blunt, shows a complete lack of understanding of the 1990s market and today's market.

This is what happened in the 90s (I was there, selling books). Valiant titles sold pretty mediocre by those days standards, probably percentage wise worse than they are doing now, compared to top sellers. Then Gareb Shamus, the owner of Wizard magazine, as well as a retail comic book store, run by his mom, decided to invest in Valiant books, and, in COMPLETE conflict of interest, started marking them up. This, along with other similar efforts by Shamus, caused the crazy boom in Valiant's print runs, which doubled and tripled monthly, with VERY LITTLE new readership added. Once he withdrew his support, after selling a ton of books for crazy prices, and once people realized they could not sell their Bloodshot #6 for anything, the "investors" pulled out rather drastically, and without any additional readers, the print runs plummeted. I would even say that readers had NOTHING to do with this, at that time, even terrible Valiant was better than most crap on the market.

That market was unique, and can never happen again. There is no authority that people follow blindly, like Wizard was. I sold more copies of Wizard in the 90s than most of my comics. That means EVERYONE was reading the stupid thing. They were buying it, ripping the bag, and looking through the price guide while in store, to see what was Red and what was Blue. People followed Gareb's advice blindly, not realizing he created the prices that they were seeing on their books.

This is a different market. There are collectors, and even investors, and there is nothing wrong with it, because most of them these days are doing it differently, going after media properties, severely under ordered books that have potential to become the next WD. They are not blindly buying every book by the publisher that's HOT in huge numbers. You should see the stacks of boxes I find in front of my store on semi-regular basis, with TONS of early Image and Valiant, in bags, 20 per issue. These people were buying blindly, hundreds of thousands of copies. You know many people who did that here on this site. Was that healthy? NO.

Most of my customers are readers, that's why SAGA and EAST WEST and LAZARUS are so big, selling more than most Marvel & DC books. Sex Criminals is another one that is building subs every month, because it's SOOOO good, not because it's worth a ton.

But what *SQUEE* me off the most is that some people are Narcissistic enough to think they know better than the professionals at Valiant, Marvel, DC, and many other publishers, who have years and years of experience, know what makes the market tick, talk to retailers and fans, spend millions of dollars to go to cons and judge what works. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to see fans of the product and publisher, who'd stuck around for years earning for it to come back, make gloomy predictions and accuse the publisher of doing it ALL wrong, rubs me the wrong way. I say this as a fan, not as a retailer, even though my two decades behind the counter, and my well known well developed relationships within the industry are well known.

By the way, how many here have realized yet that Valiant is doing EXCEPTIONALLY well based on this simple fact. EVERY SINGLE PUBLISHER out there who is doing well does it with Licensed properties, or HUGE Names. Dynamite, Boom, Dark Horse, IDW, and if you really think, Marvel & DC, are all dealing in really well known licenses that you don't need to SELL. GI JOE does not need to be explained, neither does Batman. Image Comics is the only publisher dealing in original content, but guess what, 3-4 years ago, they were in deep *SQUEE*, unitl Kirkman got invited to come in and bring his friends along, and got Brian K. Vaughn, Mark Millar, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison, Frank Cho and a few others to do books there. In a reader market, those are bigger "characters' than Spider-Man and Batman. Which btw proves my point. In the 90s, content was irrelevant, Rob Liefeld made millons, and Spawn (awful book and concept) was one of the top selling books. Collector's and Investors. Now I sell more copies of Lazarus, a dry and dirty sci fi crime book, than most Marvel books, and more copies of Saga, a weird adult only rated R book, than ALL other titles.

Valiant is the only publisher doing it with their own characters, largely unknown to a new modern reader, and is selling MORE per title than IDW, Boom (except for Adventure Time), Dark Horse (except for Star Wars, which is now gone).

Now my final word on "the right strategy". I agree 100% with what Valiant is doing, what every publisher these days wants and SHOULD try to do, that is:

GET AS MANY COPIES OF YOUR BOOKS INTO EACH AND EVERY COMIC BOOK SHOP AND TRY TO MAKE RETAILER LOOK AT THEIR INVENTORY AND DECIDE TO GET BEHIND THIS AWESOME PRODUCT WHICH THEY HAVE A LOT OF AND, IF THEY COULD SELL MORE, WOULD MAKE MORE MONEY. GIVE THEM VARIANTS, EXTRA DISCOUNTS, 3D BOOKS, RETURNABILITY AND WHATEVER ELSE TO LOAD THEM WITH PRODUCT, AND BY HAVING PRODUCT, DESIRE TO SUPPORT THE PUBLISHER. Any publisher doing anything other than that is doing it WRONG.

BOOM! *drops the mike*

[lorddunlow]

I think we're one post away from seeing Evil Paradise! Really enjoying your input Ed, and I see your point in general. However, I do think overprinting (as a result of variants) is hurting VEI's image a bit. People don't think much of books that end up in the dollar bins, and VEI books filled the dollar bins of the last comic show I was at. No copies of VEI on dealer's walls to act as free advertising.

Actually - Elveen - do you have any VEI on your wall when at shows? I know you promote the crap out of VEI, but are they on your wall?

I admit to being illogical. My LCS put the first 4 issues of Cyberforce in my bags when I bought books (because Top Cow was promoting that way as a result of their Kickstarter). I actually threw them aside and never read them until after I got hooked into the universe with Aphrodite IX. They're really good books, IMHO. However, because a)it was a property from the "crap 90s comics" and b)it was being given away for free by the publisher, I thought "this must really suck if they have to give it away free". I can't be the only one who thinks this way. Let me reiterate - I never even read the book because I perceived it as of lower quality because it was cheap (free). I regret that decision now, but if there is a trend of VEI issues ending up being worth cents a few months after release, then others won't ever know how great VEI is - they won't ever bother with it.

Now, this doesn't include everyone. I shouldn't have been so shallow and stupid. I literally was judging a book by it's cover. But a lot of people will avoid VEI completely just because there are TONS of unsold copies floating around. There has to be a middle ground that maximizes the yield. I can't believe that VEI is at that middle point.

[paradise]

Except a good retailer will see the inventory and will try to "sell" it to their customers.

A bad retailer does not matter, either way, 10% of retailers order and sell 90% of books.

And as much as I despise quarter bins, there is a group of people who'll try it there, and will then start picking books up.

WIN WIN

[paradise]

I think we're one post away from seeing Evil Paradise!

Never gonna happen, I can be frank, but never "evil". My twin, Ted, though...

[Intrepidxc]

I disagree completely.

I am with you. BTW, I Thought I was done with this conversation, but the stuff I just read from Heath, and sorry if I am blunt, shows a complete lack of understanding of the 1990s market and today's market.

This is what happened in the 90s (I was there, selling books). Valiant titles sold pretty mediocre by those days standards, probably percentage wise worse than they are doing now, compared to top sellers. Then Gareb Shamus, the owner of Wizard magazine, as well as a retail comic book store, run by his mom, decided to invest in Valiant books, and, in COMPLETE conflict of interest, started marking them up. This, along with other similar efforts by Shamus, caused the crazy boom in Valiant's print runs, which doubled and tripled monthly, with VERY LITTLE new readership added. Once he withdrew his support, after selling a ton of books for crazy prices, and once people realized they could not sell their Bloodshot #6 for anything, the "investors" pulled out rather drastically, and without any additional readers, the print runs plummeted. I would even say that readers had NOTHING to do with this, at that time, even terrible Valiant was better than most crap on the market.

That market was unique, and can never happen again. There is no authority that people follow blindly, like Wizard was. I sold more copies of Wizard in the 90s than most of my comics. That means EVERYONE was reading the stupid thing. They were buying it, ripping the bag, and looking through the price guide while in store, to see what was Red and what was Blue. People followed Gareb's advice blindly, not realizing he created the prices that they were seeing on their books.

This is a different market. There are collectors, and even investors, and there is nothing wrong with it, because most of them these days are doing it differently, going after media properties, severely under ordered books that have potential to become the next WD. They are not blindly buying every book by the publisher that's HOT in huge numbers. You should see the stacks of boxes I find in front of my store on semi-regular basis, with TONS of early Image and Valiant, in bags, 20 per issue. These people were buying blindly, hundreds of thousands of copies. You know many people who did that here on this site. Was that healthy? NO.

Most of my customers are readers, that's why SAGA and EAST WEST and LAZARUS are so big, selling more than most Marvel & DC books. Sex Criminals is another one that is building subs every month, because it's SOOOO good, not because it's worth a ton.

But what peeves me off the most is that some people are Narcissistic enough to think they know better than the professionals at Valiant, Marvel, DC, and many other publishers, who have years and years of experience, know what makes the market tick, talk to retailers and fans, spend millions of dollars to go to cons and judge what works. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to see fans of the product and publisher, who'd stuck around for years earning for it to come back, make gloomy predictions and accuse the publisher of doing it ALL wrong, rubs me the wrong way. I say this as a fan, not as a retailer, even though my two decades behind the counter, and my well developed relationships within the industry are known to most.

By the way, how many here have realized yet that Valiant is doing EXCEPTIONALLY well based on this simple fact. EVERY SINGLE PUBLISHER out there who is doing well does it with Licensed properties, or HUGE Names. Dynamite, Boom, Dark Horse, IDW, and if you really think, Marvel & DC, are all dealing in really well known licenses that you don't need to SELL. GI JOE does not need to be explained, neither does Batman. Image Comics is the only publisher dealing in original content, but guess what, 3-4 years ago, they were in deep *SQUEE*, unitl Kirkman got invited to come in and bring his friends along, and got Brian K. Vaughn, Mark Millar, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison, Frank Cho and a few others to do books there. In a reader market, those are bigger "characters' than Spider-Man and Batman. Which btw proves my point. In the 90s, content was irrelevant, Rob Liefeld made millons, and Spawn (awful book and concept) was one of the top selling books. Collector's and Investors. Now I sell more copies of Lazarus, a dry and dirty sci fi crime book, than most Marvel books, and more copies of Saga, a weird adult only rated R book, than ALL other titles, and ONE COPY AT A TIME

Valiant is the only publisher doing it with their own characters, largely unknown to a new modern reader, and is selling MORE per title than IDW, Boom (except for Adventure Time), Dark Horse (except for Star Wars, which is now gone).

Now my final word on "the right strategy". I agree 100% with what Valiant is doing, what every publisher these days wants and SHOULD try to do, that is:

GET AS MANY COPIES OF YOUR BOOKS INTO EACH AND EVERY COMIC BOOK SHOP AND TRY TO MAKE RETAILER LOOK AT THEIR INVENTORY AND DECIDE TO GET BEHIND THIS AWESOME PRODUCT WHICH THEY HAVE A LOT OF AND, IF THEY COULD SELL MORE, WOULD MAKE MORE MONEY. GIVE THEM VARIANTS, EXTRA DISCOUNTS, 3D BOOKS, RETURNABILITY AND WHATEVER ELSE TO LOAD THEM WITH PRODUCT, AND BY HAVING PRODUCT, DESIRE TO SUPPORT THE PUBLISHER. Any publisher doing anything other than that is doing it WRONG.

In the 90s I was a kid who enjoyed collecting. I got into Valiant because of the investing aspect, but stayed because I loved the universe (and spawn was terrible). When I got back into collecting in mid 2013 I decided to collect what I liked, not what I thought would make me money. I now have almost a complete run of all the V1 stuff (still need about 20 turok books) and an almost complete collection of VEI #1 slabs. I don't view the $ spend on these slabs and the V1 books as investing. I view it as entertainment and a hobby. I read the great image titles, in TPB form, and I'm not worried about make money on my collection.

Of course if I had a few TWD #1s (and I had a chance to have several copies when they first came out ) I wouldn't complain.

In short, I say collect what you enjoy and don't invest in comics. Just my $.02

[lorddunlow]

Except a good retailer will see the inventory and will try to "sell" it to their customers.

A bad retailer does not matter, either way, 10% of retailers order and sell 90% of books.

And as much as I despise quarter bins, there is a group of people who'll try it there, and will then start picking books up.

WIN WIN

I understand that to VEI, a book sold to a retailer is a sold book, no matter if the retailer makes any money off of it or not. I can see how the variants are making them money which allows them to both continue to expand the line and improve each existing book. Unity was really my personal breaking point. That was just too many books. At some point, (and I personally think we've reached that point - but as you said, VEI has experts planning this stuff out) it will start hurting - customers will stop buying all the variants which will leave retailers with books that aren't paid for (again bad retailers, but it will still happen en masse), retailers will cut orders for VEI books, and they may even have a bad taste in their mouth and turn people away from their books entirely.

It's just really annoying that the books that I paid good money for are worth much less than I paid for them. I'm actually surprised they continue to sell as many as they have, not because the books aren't good - they're great (except Q&W), but because only someone really dedicated to supporting a growing company would spend $4 on something they can at least get for half that if they just wait a month or so. Or go to trades or digital only like many here have done. As you said, Ed, trade-waiting is not a tenable practice. If everyone did it, the books would be canceled. If we're only buying things based on the reading quality, then why collect paper books at all. Same story can be found digitally, or in libraries. Look at regular bookstores - ebooks have destroyed that market. The only thing that keeps paper comics relevant is the collectability. Now, some may still prefer reading floppies over digital, but I'd guess it's about the same percentage of people who prefer physical books to ebooks - they aren't enough to keep printed books alive. If VEI ever releases DRM-free books, I'm going all-digital on VEI. My $3.99 means just as much to support them for a digital copy as it would for a paper copy (and actually would probably go a little further since the cost of distribution is less), and then I wouldn't feel cheated that I have a box full of comics taking up space that literally aren't worth the paper/ink they're printed on. I love collecting comics, but VEI is not collectible. At least not in their current state. This is, of course, just my opinion, but I'm sure there are many who share my feelings.

[ckb]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

[BugsySig]

I think we're one post away from seeing Evil Paradise!

Never gonna happen, I can be frank, but never "evil". My twin, Ted, though...

Who the hell is Frank

[lorddunlow]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

+1

I think we're one post away from seeing Evil Paradise!

Never gonna happen, I can be frank, but never "evil". My twin, Ted, though...

Who the hell is Frank

Stop that, Bugsy! People are starting to think something's going on in my office!

[GammaJosh]

Except a good retailer will see the inventory and will try to "sell" it to their customers.

A bad retailer does not matter, either way, 10% of retailers order and sell 90% of books.

And as much as I despise quarter bins, there is a group of people who'll try it there, and will then start picking books up.

WIN WIN

I understand that to VEI, a book sold to a retailer is a sold book, no matter if the retailer makes any money off of it or not. I can see how the variants are making them money which allows them to both continue to expand the line and improve each existing book. Unity was really my personal breaking point. That was just too many books. At some point, (and I personally think we've reached that point - but as you said, VEI has experts planning this stuff out) it will start hurting - customers will stop buying all the variants which will leave retailers with books that aren't paid for (again bad retailers, but it will still happen en masse), retailers will cut orders for VEI books, and they may even have a bad taste in their mouth and turn people away from their books entirely.

It's just really annoying that the books that I paid good money for are worth much less than I paid for them. I'm actually surprised they continue to sell as many as they have, not because the books aren't good - they're great (except Q&W), but because only someone really dedicated to supporting a growing company would spend $4 on something they can at least get for half that if they just wait a month or so. Or go to trades or digital only like many here have done. As you said, Ed, trade-waiting is not a tenable practice. If everyone did it, the books would be canceled. If we're only buying things based on the reading quality, then why collect paper books at all. Same story can be found digitally, or in libraries. Look at regular bookstores - ebooks have destroyed that market. The only thing that keeps paper comics relevant is the collectability. Now, some may still prefer reading floppies over digital, but I'd guess it's about the same percentage of people who prefer physical books to ebooks - they aren't enough to keep printed books alive. If VEI ever releases DRM-free books, I'm going all-digital on VEI. My $3.99 means just as much to support them for a digital copy as it would for a paper copy (and actually would probably go a little further since the cost of distribution is less), and then I wouldn't feel cheated that I have a box full of comics taking up space that literally aren't worth the paper/ink they're printed on. I love collecting comics, but VEI is not collectible. At least not in their current state. This is, of course, just my opinion, but I'm sure there are many who share my feelings.

Why does that annoy you so much? If you go see a movie that you're really looking forward to on first run, you know you're spending a premium when you could wait to see it second run for half the cost. What about all the smartphone tech gadget addicts that pay high dollar for the latest iPhone or iPod when it comes out? It's the same with many other products. Who cares how much it's worth later?

[Heath]

BTW, I Thought I was done with this conversation, but the stuff I just read from Heath, and sorry if I am blunt, shows a complete lack of understanding of the 1990s market and today's market.

This is what happened in the 90s (I was there, selling books).

I was there too. I was a retailer, in a small shop in a small town, through most of the 90s. Obviously, my experience and level of expertise is dwarfed by yours, and I've only been an outside observer to the retail world since then, but I speak from experience and first-hand knowledge of the 90's market as well.

Valiant titles sold pretty mediocre by those days standards, probably percentage wise worse than they are doing now, compared to top sellers. Then Gareb Shamus, the owner of Wizard magazine, as well as a retail comic book store, run by his mom, decided to invest in Valiant books, and, in COMPLETE conflict of interest, started marking them up. This, along with other similar efforts by Shamus, caused the crazy boom in Valiant's print runs, which doubled and tripled monthly, with VERY LITTLE new readership added. Once he withdrew his support, after selling a ton of books for crazy prices, and once people realized they could not sell their Bloodshot #6 for anything, the "investors" pulled out rather drastically, and without any additional readers, the print runs plummeted. I would even say that readers had NOTHING to do with this, at that time, even terrible Valiant was better than most crap on the market.

My experience differs greatly from yours. While I sold a lot of copies of Wizard, and it certainly had an influence, I would not attribute it near the power over my customers as yours. The majority of my customers weren't Wizard zombies blindly doing whatever Gareb said. My Valiant READERS as well as collectors grew steadily through the early years of Valiant primarily because the books were great. While I had a few collector/speculators buying multiple copies, I had more people buying 1 copy of each issue because they loved to read them. Of course, I also pushed Valiant pretty hard to the customers I knew were readers first. I love your Unity promotion as that was the kind of thing I did back then when I had faith in a book. I also didn't cater to the rabid speculation. If I happened to receive a variant cover, I'd give it to one of the subscribers of that title at regular price, and I never artificially inflated my orders just to get a variant to put up on the wall and sell for an arm and a leg. It may have been bad business, but it just didn't feel right to me so I didn't do it. It felt like gouging.

Anyway, just as Valiant readership had steadily grown through the early 90s, by the mid 90s it was steadily declining. Valiant "readers" dropped faster and sooner than the Valiant "collectors/speculators." Eventually I was only ordering a copy for me and a copy for the shelf. I pushed the Acclaim relaunch hard, offering bundles of #1s or the first few issues of a title at discounts, offering returns or exchanges, etc. And I had a small amount of success in the beginning, but the quality just wasn't there and, once again, I was eventually ordering a copy for me and a copy for the shelf. Those shelf copies never sold, the books sucked, so I eventually stopped ordering them all together, even for myself. I had sold the shop and was done with it before the 3rd issue of Unity 2000 shipped.

It was the quality of the books that caused the sales to grow, and it was the quality of the books that caused the sales to crash and burn.

Do I think I know better than the "experts?" No, of course not. Neither am I making gloomy predictions about VEI. I think they have a quality product (well, except for Shadowman and maybe even Eternal Warrior) that is overshadowed by the marketing gimmicks. But I hate a lot of things that I see, and when there's a discussion about those things I'm going to offer my 2 cents. To borrow from Stephen Colbert, opinions are like demo tapes and you may not want to hear mine. Feel free to put me on ignore.

[GammaJosh]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

[BugsySig]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

Nonsense and shenanigans! Don't go bringing your *SQUEE* logic here, newb!

[Aram]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

this.

The only real downside I see, is that Valiant Die-Hard completist collectors are getting burned out, giving up on the new VEI variants and getting upset about the overload that is preventing everyone but those with the deepest pockets from obtaining complete collections of everything Valiant.

I say cancel all Variants. Make 1 Variant of EVERY Issue.. A GOLD logo book of the same cover.

Then it's simple. You can have a regular collection.. or the bling collection.

[etos45]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

STFU noob!!!!

[GammaJosh]

STFU noob!!!!

Nevaaaar!

Seriously though, I'm usually a completist in that I want full runs of one of each issue in a series, but don't really care about having all or any of the variants. But Valiant has even gotten me excited enough to track down some of the variants (8-bit covers and Shadowman Halloween mask cover come to mind), so they are definitely engaging the collector in me better than most other publishers.

[lorddunlow]

Except a good retailer will see the inventory and will try to "sell" it to their customers.

A bad retailer does not matter, either way, 10% of retailers order and sell 90% of books.

And as much as I despise quarter bins, there is a group of people who'll try it there, and will then start picking books up.

WIN WIN

I understand that to VEI, a book sold to a retailer is a sold book, no matter if the retailer makes any money off of it or not. I can see how the variants are making them money which allows them to both continue to expand the line and improve each existing book. Unity was really my personal breaking point. That was just too many books. At some point, (and I personally think we've reached that point - but as you said, VEI has experts planning this stuff out) it will start hurting - customers will stop buying all the variants which will leave retailers with books that aren't paid for (again bad retailers, but it will still happen en masse), retailers will cut orders for VEI books, and they may even have a bad taste in their mouth and turn people away from their books entirely.

It's just really annoying that the books that I paid good money for are worth much less than I paid for them. I'm actually surprised they continue to sell as many as they have, not because the books aren't good - they're great (except Q&W), but because only someone really dedicated to supporting a growing company would spend $4 on something they can at least get for half that if they just wait a month or so. Or go to trades or digital only like many here have done. As you said, Ed, trade-waiting is not a tenable practice. If everyone did it, the books would be canceled. If we're only buying things based on the reading quality, then why collect paper books at all. Same story can be found digitally, or in libraries. Look at regular bookstores - ebooks have destroyed that market. The only thing that keeps paper comics relevant is the collectability. Now, some may still prefer reading floppies over digital, but I'd guess it's about the same percentage of people who prefer physical books to ebooks - they aren't enough to keep printed books alive. If VEI ever releases DRM-free books, I'm going all-digital on VEI. My $3.99 means just as much to support them for a digital copy as it would for a paper copy (and actually would probably go a little further since the cost of distribution is less), and then I wouldn't feel cheated that I have a box full of comics taking up space that literally aren't worth the paper/ink they're printed on. I love collecting comics, but VEI is not collectible. At least not in their current state. This is, of course, just my opinion, but I'm sure there are many who share my feelings.

Why does that annoy you so much? If you go see a movie that you're really looking forward to on first run, you know you're spending a premium when you could wait to see it second run for half the cost. What about all the smartphone tech gadget addicts that pay high dollar for the latest iPhone or iPod when it comes out? It's the same with many other products. Who cares how much it's worth later?

It's really funny that you ask that. I've only watched a handful of movies when they first air over the past 10 years. I usually don't watch a movie until it comes out on Netflix. If it's something I really think will be good, then I'll get it on blu-ray. It has to be something I think will be great (Avengers, Inception, etc.) or something my whole family can enjoy (kids movies) for me to plunk my hard-earned dollar down for a movie experience. (Part of this is because, with my current home theater set up, there is very little that a movie theater has to offer - and in the case of the theater nearest me, my home viewing is much superior.) I also tend to wait to pick up Blu-rays when they go on sale. I just watched the Hobbit (the first one) for the first time last week.

You've struck a nerve with the gadget thing. I'm a big tech nerd. I love Android devices. However, my first device was the OG Droid that was purchased (actually it was free with contract) at the end of its useful life. The phones that came out right around the time I got mine were far superior. I love tinkering, though, so I made it do amazing things (I was running the latest version of Android when the "new" phones weren't even getting it). That's actually my biggest hobby (moreso than comics). I really wanted a tablet, but could never justify the price - especially when they depreciate so much. So, I asked for a tablet for Christmas about 2 years ago - my wife got me a refurbished NookColor - also at the end of its life - for which she got on sale for less than $100. It's a toy. I'm not going to spend money that could take us on a nice vacation for a toy. I still love that thing. It's awesome.

I did start itching for a bigger tablet for comics (and the old NookColor was starting reach it's natural limit as far as tinkering goes). I bought a Nook HD+ with 32gb for $170. I don't think I would ever pay more than that for a tablet.

I'm currently in need of a new phone. I want to keep my unlimited data plan, so I have to buy a phone off-contract. I will not pay $600 for a phone. Will not. It's ridiculous. I'm currently unsure what my next move is.

So, I guess this trend annoys me in every aspect of life. I don't like paying for something that I can get cheaper with patience. That I plunk down $3.99 for every VEI book shows how loyal I am to this company and how much I want them to succeed. I'm just saying I don't think everyone would do so (and if I were not in a good financial situation, I'd be taking the cheaper route.).

As an aside - this is an awesome conversation. Thank you to everyone who has commented - except BugsySig. I just don't like the cut of his jib.

[etos45]

STFU noob!!!!

Nevaaaar!

Seriously though, I'm usually a completist in that I want full runs of one of each issue in a series, but don't really care about having all or any of the variants. But Valiant has even gotten me excited enough to track down some of the variants (8-bit covers and Shadowman Halloween mask cover come to mind), so they are definitely engaging the collector in me better than most other publishers.

I agree. My "complete" strategy is one of each, but I buy all of the cover price variants as well. I do think the 8-bit, QR, and throw back cover are always my favorite.

[lorddunlow]

STFU noob!!!!

Nevaaaar!

Seriously though, I'm usually a completist in that I want full runs of one of each issue in a series, but don't really care about having all or any of the variants. But Valiant has even gotten me excited enough to track down some of the variants (8-bit covers and Shadowman Halloween mask cover come to mind), so they are definitely engaging the collector in me better than most other publishers.

I agree. My "complete" strategy is one of each, but I buy all of the cover price variants as well. I do think the 8-bit, QR, and throw back cover are always my favorite.

The funny thing is I actually love a lot of the variants - the 8-bits being my favorites. I also liked the "face" variants for Harbinger and the character design variants. The Garbowska cover for Unity was great, too.

I just don't like the 1:100 and 1:200 variants. That's just crazy.