Underrated Scarcity in some VEI's 1:50s

[slimydog]

For those who are speculating on VEI issues based on scarcity, if you take the below factors into account, I think the three below 1:50 variants are ridiculously scarce IMO.

* Ratios are conservative if shops' orders creep between 20-40 max. (can lower estimate)
* 1:50 variant print runs do not equal true-market availability, since according to Dinesh, variants that are not earned via retail are shredded to sustain scarcity (e.g. Louis Vuitton)
* However, some variants are given away by VEI as prizes, tokens of self-promo, etc.

::using comichron.com sales figures::
- Archer & Armstrong #5 (Dec'12) - 14,544 copies sold - 291 earned
- Harbinger Wars #3 (Jun'13) - 14,012 copies sold - 280 earned
- Archer & Armstrong #10 (Jun'13) - 13,241 copies sold - 265 earned (crazy-low for a non-gold, non-line wide variant IMO)

Other than the cover artist demand that can be independent of scarcity (e.g. Adams, Lemire, Grampa, etc.), it's as if these 1:50s are stronger variant commodities than the golds and issue-dependent incentives (e.g. Harby #7 or X-O #9) which may be worth more. I'm sure that the 1:50 Quantum & Woody would be more scarce than the CBLDF variant - albeit getting a 9.8 CBLDF variant may be close to impossible.

[lorddunlow]

* 1:50 variant print runs do not equal true-market availability, since according to Dinesh, variants that are not earned via retail are shredded to sustain scarcity (e.g. Louis Vuitton).

When did he say that?

[jmatt]

* 1:50 variant print runs do not equal true-market availability, since according to Dinesh, variants that are not earned via retail are shredded to sustain scarcity (e.g. Louis Vuitton).

When did he say that?

I'd be interested in hearing more about this, too.

[Man Of The Atom]

I could be wrong, but I am thinking Dino doesn't shred any books.
That would be a waste of money. The extras are probably used as give aways later on, for example something like fan art Friday.

[slimydog]

This was in a conversation that I've had with him before SDCC. We were talking about Shadowman movie scripts, Hollywood's numerous pitches, the price of the Liberty variant, Unity and the sustainability of unearned variant copies. He's a very bright dude. Dare I say that his spirit is very influential - 80s Silicon Valley-like.

All of which, I will keep confidential from here on out.

[lorddunlow]

It just sort of goes against what he said in interviews several times during the initial relaunch, especially in regards to the "we print 1000 copies minimum" statement (which I realize is no longer true). He stated that he wanted to make sure that enough fans could "get them all" without it being nearly impossible. Shredding books seems like the dumbest thing anyone or any company could possibly do.

[nycjadie]

I find the 1:50's the most difficult to find. I have 3 on my list right now. They must be priced low enough for people to feel OK buying them. I find the 1:125's easier, believe it or not, and not that much more expensive in many cases.

Does anyone have an extra X-0 15 or Harbinger Wars 3?

[vaevictis]

I find the 1:50's the most difficult to find. I have 3 on my list right now. They must be priced low enough for people to feel OK buying them. I find the 1:125's easier, believe it or not, and not that much more expensive in many cases.

Does anyone have an extra X-0 15 or Harbinger Wars 3?

Try talking to Ed (Paradise). I live in Texas and have a standing subscription with him for any and all Valiant. In the year I have been getting books from him, I cannot remember an order that did not contain every variant that came out for that month.

[drmirage]

From what I know... (not that I know anything anyway)

Variants all had minimum of at least 1,000 copies up until 2013.

The later 1:50 variants are hard to find...

1:100, 1:125 and 1:150 are line wide variants so are much easier to find than the current 1:50 variants.

Not many shops order as many as 50 copies to qualify to get the 1:50.

I believe the earned copies will play a role in value down the road when they are harder and harder to find.

Even the X-O #5 1:50's are hard to find. (Check eBay... not many are out there in the market)

[kevinbastos]

I keep thinking of telling my LCS to stop ordering the 1:50.

But I keep forgetting.

[drmirage]

They must be selling over 50 then..

My LCS does not qualify for any limited variants now. (they dont sell many copies)

[slimydog]

Shredding books seems like the dumbest thing anyone or any company could possibly do.

I was totally shocked to hear about the shredding. I also read up about the 1k print minimum. Also just read that VEI follows a particular policy in assigning variants to coincide with story development and not simply to influence sales, if sales is under-performing. If variants are story/arc driven, I could understand why shredding books would be a better marketing tool to sustain value in scarcity.

[nycjadie]

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check with Ed. Might be good to move my sub from my FLCS, or simply double them up. My LCS gives me lots of freebees.

[GGSAE]

Shredding books seems like the dumbest thing anyone or any company could possibly do.

I was totally shocked to hear about the shredding. I also read up about the 1k print minimum. Also just read that VEI follows a particular policy in assigning variants to coincide with story development and not simply to influence sales, if sales is under-performing. If variants are story/arc driven, I could understand why shredding books would be a better marketing tool to sustain value in scarcity.

I'm not dismissing what Dino told you, but I still question the validity in that. How many times have we seen warehouse stock of a rare variant book end up all in someone's hands? And I have a hard time thinking that anyone at Valiant cares about the after-market value of their printed books.

[GGSAE]

I find the 1:50's the most difficult to find. I have 3 on my list right now. They must be priced low enough for people to feel OK buying them. I find the 1:125's easier, believe it or not, and not that much more expensive in many cases.

Does anyone have an extra X-0 15 or Harbinger Wars 3?

There's no question at all that the later (past issue 1) of the 1:50's are tough to find, and some are ridiculously tough to find. The largest shop in town (out of 5) doesn't do anywhere close to 50 books/title, so I think the number of earned copies is extremely rare. The question is, how many people care? How many people are willing to shell out $50+ for a 1:50 variant of issue 15-20-30? Probably less and less with each passing month.

[Elveen]

I find the 1:50's the most difficult to find. I have 3 on my list right now. They must be priced low enough for people to feel OK buying them. I find the 1:125's easier, believe it or not, and not that much more expensive in many cases.

Does anyone have an extra X-0 15 or Harbinger Wars 3?

There's no question at all that the later (past issue 1) of the 1:50's are tough to find, and some are ridiculously tough to find. The largest shop in town (out of 5) doesn't do anywhere close to 50 books/title, so I think the number of earned copies is extremely rare. The question is, how many people care? How many people are willing to shell out $50+ for a 1:50 variant of issue 15-20-30? Probably less and less with each passing month.

Down the road? I'll bet some.

Think of the all the rare Acclaim books that command over $50. And these books are much better in quality that the Acclaim books.

I think this conversation will be much different down the line. I think many of the variants will command price down the road. (and unfortunately I am not hoarding big amounts of these books)

[GGSAE]

I find the 1:50's the most difficult to find. I have 3 on my list right now. They must be priced low enough for people to feel OK buying them. I find the 1:125's easier, believe it or not, and not that much more expensive in many cases.

Does anyone have an extra X-0 15 or Harbinger Wars 3?

There's no question at all that the later (past issue 1) of the 1:50's are tough to find, and some are ridiculously tough to find. The largest shop in town (out of 5) doesn't do anywhere close to 50 books/title, so I think the number of earned copies is extremely rare. The question is, how many people care? How many people are willing to shell out $50+ for a 1:50 variant of issue 15-20-30? Probably less and less with each passing month.

Down the road? I'll bet some.

Think of the all the rare Acclaim books that command over $50. And these books are much better in quality that the Acclaim books.

I think this conversation will be much different down the line. I think many of the variants will command price down the road. (and unfortunately I am not hoarding big amounts of these books)

But there's a finite number of books. The number of covers HAS to be factored in with VE1. It's like supplying additional units on the supply curve, each cannibalizing the previous unit's selling value.

Take Armorines in Acclaim and compare it to Harbinger Wars.

Issue 4 of Armorines commands a price because of it's rarity, the rest are all valued more or less around cover, sometimes up to $10 a piece. Harbinger Wars has 8 books rarer than #4, do you think all 8 will sell for $50 and up?

When a company has many variants, their demand (and sadly the regular issues as well) falls, and it accelerates at an increasing rate. Take a look at Vampirella from the 90s all the way to the 2000s. They have books that are limited to 100 copies that sell for as low as $15-20. Any book with a print run of 500 or more and very few people care about them...

[Elveen]

I find the 1:50's the most difficult to find. I have 3 on my list right now. They must be priced low enough for people to feel OK buying them. I find the 1:125's easier, believe it or not, and not that much more expensive in many cases.

Does anyone have an extra X-0 15 or Harbinger Wars 3?

There's no question at all that the later (past issue 1) of the 1:50's are tough to find, and some are ridiculously tough to find. The largest shop in town (out of 5) doesn't do anywhere close to 50 books/title, so I think the number of earned copies is extremely rare. The question is, how many people care? How many people are willing to shell out $50+ for a 1:50 variant of issue 15-20-30? Probably less and less with each passing month.

Down the road? I'll bet some.

Think of the all the rare Acclaim books that command over $50. And these books are much better in quality that the Acclaim books.

I think this conversation will be much different down the line. I think many of the variants will command price down the road. (and unfortunately I am not hoarding big amounts of these books)

But there's a finite number of books. The number of covers HAS to be factored in with VE1. It's like supplying additional units on the supply curve, each cannibalizing the previous unit's selling value.

Take Armorines in Acclaim and compare it to Harbinger Wars.

Issue 4 of Armorines commands a price because of it's rarity, the rest are all valued more or less around cover, sometimes up to $10 a piece. Harbinger Wars has 8 books rarer than #4, do you think all 8 will sell for $50 and up?

When a company has many variants, their demand (and sadly the regular issues as well) falls, and it accelerates at an increasing rate. Take a look at Vampirella from the 90s all the way to the 2000s. They have books that are limited to 100 copies that sell for as low as $15-20. Any book with a print run of 500 or more and very few people care about them...

Im not sure.
Think of this....

How many people are currently looking for (or have been looking for) Arm v2 #4? Now......

Let's just say.... that VEI keeps putting out great books, keeps getting amazing creators..... continues building their readership...... and let's just say they get to top 5 publisher, competing with Image and DH for the #3 spot...... How many more people will be looking for the VEI books compared to the Acclaim books?

maybe the only a handful of books command price down the road, but is there a chance that some of the hard to find books really shoot up and many of the variants really go up?

I think so. My supposition is based on VEI "succeeding", if they poop the bed..... then not so much.

[kevinbastos]

But there's a finite number of books. The number of covers HAS to be factored in with VE1. It's like supplying additional units on the supply curve, each cannibalizing the previous unit's selling value.

Take Armorines in Acclaim and compare it to Harbinger Wars.

Issue 4 of Armorines commands a price because of it's rarity, the rest are all valued more or less around cover, sometimes up to $10 a piece. Harbinger Wars has 8 books rarer than #4, do you think all 8 will sell for $50 and up?

When a company has many variants, their demand (and sadly the regular issues as well) falls, and it accelerates at an increasing rate. Take a look at Vampirella from the 90s all the way to the 2000s. They have books that are limited to 100 copies that sell for as low as $15-20. Any book with a print run of 500 or more and very few people care about them...

The thing that keeps Acclaim's Armorines demand high is its scarcity PLUS the fact that the issue story is ONLY available there. Before I collected any variants, golds, signed, etc... I wanted to read the story. Even if it was bad. Add to it that it is a complete story, and a relatively good one.

Might a copy of Archer & Armstrong 1:50 be rarer? Sure. But I could get a cover price, or see it in TPB. Only the completist (completionist) wants the 1:50. When that task becomes impossible, the books become more prevalent.

[Aram]

I think there is no comparrison with Armorines v2 #4 and Vei limited prints because Armorines is from a book with no reprints and no likelyhood of a reprint anytime soon I'm guessing.

All the VEI stuff is likely to be reprinted 6 months down the road in tpb and many seem to be switching to that method and/or abandoning the completist mentality due to the volume of variants.

I think there will be demand for vei variants but I doubt it will even compare to anything original that is rare as long as VEI is in business... Which will hopefully be forever.

[GGSAE]

I find the 1:50's the most difficult to find. I have 3 on my list right now. They must be priced low enough for people to feel OK buying them. I find the 1:125's easier, believe it or not, and not that much more expensive in many cases.

Does anyone have an extra X-0 15 or Harbinger Wars 3?

There's no question at all that the later (past issue 1) of the 1:50's are tough to find, and some are ridiculously tough to find. The largest shop in town (out of 5) doesn't do anywhere close to 50 books/title, so I think the number of earned copies is extremely rare. The question is, how many people care? How many people are willing to shell out $50+ for a 1:50 variant of issue 15-20-30? Probably less and less with each passing month.

Down the road? I'll bet some.

Think of the all the rare Acclaim books that command over $50. And these books are much better in quality that the Acclaim books.

I think this conversation will be much different down the line. I think many of the variants will command price down the road. (and unfortunately I am not hoarding big amounts of these books)

But there's a finite number of books. The number of covers HAS to be factored in with VE1. It's like supplying additional units on the supply curve, each cannibalizing the previous unit's selling value.

Take Armorines in Acclaim and compare it to Harbinger Wars.

Issue 4 of Armorines commands a price because of it's rarity, the rest are all valued more or less around cover, sometimes up to $10 a piece. Harbinger Wars has 8 books rarer than #4, do you think all 8 will sell for $50 and up?

When a company has many variants, their demand (and sadly the regular issues as well) falls, and it accelerates at an increasing rate. Take a look at Vampirella from the 90s all the way to the 2000s. They have books that are limited to 100 copies that sell for as low as $15-20. Any book with a print run of 500 or more and very few people care about them...

Im not sure.
Think of this....

How many people are currently looking for (or have been looking for) Arm v2 #4? Now......

Let's just say.... that VEI keeps putting out great books, keeps getting amazing creators..... continues building their readership...... and let's just say they get to top 5 publisher, competing with Image and DH for the #3 spot...... How many more people will be looking for the VEI books compared to the Acclaim books?

maybe the only a handful of books command price down the road, but is there a chance that some of the hard to find books really shoot up and many of the variants really go up?

I think so. My supposition is based on VEI "succeeding", if they poop the bed..... then not so much.

I only used Acclaim Armorines from a lack of other choices, I'm not a DC/Marvel guy so I couldn't compare it. If anyone has knowledge of their market of variants, I'd like to hear it. There's no doubt most 1:50 variants will be very tough to find moving forward, and there's definitely a floor in pricing. Only time will tell where we are in 1,2,5 years from now.

[GGSAE]

But there's a finite number of books. The number of covers HAS to be factored in with VE1. It's like supplying additional units on the supply curve, each cannibalizing the previous unit's selling value.

Take Armorines in Acclaim and compare it to Harbinger Wars.

Issue 4 of Armorines commands a price because of it's rarity, the rest are all valued more or less around cover, sometimes up to $10 a piece. Harbinger Wars has 8 books rarer than #4, do you think all 8 will sell for $50 and up?

When a company has many variants, their demand (and sadly the regular issues as well) falls, and it accelerates at an increasing rate. Take a look at Vampirella from the 90s all the way to the 2000s. They have books that are limited to 100 copies that sell for as low as $15-20. Any book with a print run of 500 or more and very few people care about them...

The thing that keeps Acclaim's Armorines demand high is its scarcity PLUS the fact that the issue story is ONLY available there. Before I collected any variants, golds, signed, etc... I wanted to read the story. Even if it was bad. Add to it that it is a complete story, and a relatively good one.

Might a copy of Archer & Armstrong 1:50 be rarer? Sure. But I could get a cover price, or see it in TPB. Only the completist (completionist) wants the 1:50. When that task becomes impossible, the books become more prevalent.

Good point, and also similar to Aram's comments below, the original books will always be more sought after. Another point with rare VH1 books and Acclaim, there wasn't the accessibility of information regarding the books, so a lot of them got trashed over the years. I think that explains why books like Armorines #4 and some of the VVSS books are so rare, and probably have fewer copies in existence than produced. Everyone knows about these modern variants, and if they don't anyone on a smart phone can jump on this site and check to see what cover that book is.

[kjjohanson]

I think there is no comparrison with Armorines v2 #4 and Vei limited prints because Armorines is from a book with no reprints and no likelyhood of a reprint anytime soon I'm guessing.

I expressed an interest in seeing this, especially as most of the pre-Unity books have been collected now (other than the Gold Key characters, naturally). It seems the plan is to continue in chronological order as long as they keep on selling. (I'm not sure why anyone would buy the Bloodshot or Ninjak or any other post-Unity collection, considering the originals can be had at less than cover price, but some people still seem to want them.)

[StarBrand]

I'm sure Dino realized what the premise of this thread states, that increments lower than 50 copies would be ordered and there would be no reason to print nearly 1 of these for every 50 regular copies ordered.

[Ramses818]

I too had heard some do get pulped. To me it makes sense in a few ways.. you have to order enough from the printer to cover the orders. What do you do if orders are lower than you thought? The books are already printed...so o.k you keep a few..but because you have these printed so many months in advance it takes a while to adjust. When you start to pile up. Now we as collector's adore our books but how do you think a publisher or big retailer looks at them? They are not in the secondary market so to them this is all just taking up valuable space to them. Now what do you do? If you are smart like Valiant you create hype. By getting rid of these books (pulping) you keep the space you need, and as people start hearing how these books are not just sitting around prices will start to climb. If for no other fact than informed people (like the ones on this board) are looking for them..the original Valiant took years to build (because Valiant was around before Magnus) and benefited greatly from a price guide and hot lists. Right now there is no accepted such guides. Soch on collect what you like and as word of mouth spreads sit back and reap the benifits when the rest catch on