Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

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Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by BugsySig »

Andy Diggle and Joshua Hale Fialkov are the latest DC talents to walk away from titles due to editorial "oversight". They join a list that includes Paul Cornell, Nick Spencer and Nathan Edmundson, among others. So would you like to see VEI pursue any of these writers? Especially since DC has started tapping into VEI's talent pool lately (Venditti, Jordan, Zircher).

I've said several times that Cornell would be perfect for Ninjak/Secret Weapons. Diggle, Fialkov and Edmundson would all be good fits for Eternal Warrior, IMHO, and Spencer could do for HARD Corps what he did for THUNDER Agents. Fialkov might also be the type of writer who could tap into the potential of RAI.

Thoughts?
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by greg »

I don't know much about the writers you've listed, but I'd be more interested in their complaints against DC.

Valiant's success is in no small part due to the vision and guidance of the creative and editorial leadership.

Were the writers against what they felt were "constraints" by their DC editors?
That could happen at Valiant if they're trying to do something that's not "Valiant" according to leadership.

I think it really depends on what caused them to leave DC... and whether Valiant leadership would be offering an alternative, or more of the same.

Valiant is bigger than any one writer or artist... and I can see how that might not work for some writers or artists who might want to be in the spotlight.

I'm not saying any of these guys were "me-centric", but it makes more sense for Valiant to keep looking at the whole before worrying about who's working on each part.

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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by TheFallen »

I just want solid stories. I am not too fussed who the creative team is.

The only exposure I had to Justin Jordan was in Team 7 and as good as that title is it is nowhere near as good as Shadowman. I first read Joshua Dysart's work in Violent Messiahs and it is still one of my favourite series, but again, he is doing so much better work on Harbinger. And that is just two examples.

So it doesn't really matter who the creative team is, if they keep up the standards that have already been set then that is enough for me.

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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by manga4life »

A strong creative team could also boost sales, but none of the names mentioned are really big draws in this industry from a fan favorite standpoint and as good of a piece of talent as they may be I'm not sure if I would seek them out
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by BugsySig »

greg wrote:I don't know much about the writers you've listed, but I'd be more interested in their complaints against DC.

Valiant's success is in no small part due to the vision and guidance of the creative and editorial leadership.

Were the writers against what they felt were "constraints" by their DC editors?
That could happen at Valiant if they're trying to do something that's not "Valiant" according to leadership.

I think it really depends on what caused them to leave DC... and whether Valiant leadership would be offering an alternative, or more of the same.

Valiant is bigger than any one writer or artist... and I can see how that might not work for some writers or artists who might want to be in the spotlight.

I'm not saying any of these guys were "me-centric", but it makes more sense for Valiant to keep looking at the whole before worrying about who's working on each part.
All valid points.

Fialkov has received critical acclaim for his run on I, Vampire (which was recently cancelled), enough so that he was given 2 GL titles to write before his exit. Edmondson has done some great Indy work including Popgun and Who is Jake Ellis? Cornell may be best known for his Captain Britain and MI:13 run, then launched Stormwatch and Demon Knights for the new 52. Spencer rebooted THUNDER Agents at DC and has a great Image book Morning Glories. Diggle has done everything from Thunderbolts to Daredevil, and wrote The Loosers.

We don't know yet why Diggle left Action Comics before the first issue even hit stands. Fialkov stated that the editorial direction he was given was not in line with the story he was hired to tell. In other words, he made a pitch, it was approved, then editorial decided they wanted to go in another direction. This is not the first time this has happened. Cornell and Edmondson received similar changes that led to their departure.

What we have heard from VEI, and the creators there, is that the best idea wins and they are given a lot of creative freedom within the framework of the concept. Considering Fialkov is working on 2 books at Marvel, and Cornell on 1 (not sure about Spencer), I would think just the oversight is not the issue. I also believe VALIANT is more willing to take risks and see how a concept develops organically, and only make a drastic change if absolutely necessary.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by Xtianhardy »

BugsySig wrote:Andy Diggle and Joshua Hale Fialkov are the latest DC talents to walk away from titles due to editorial "oversight". They join a list that includes Paul Cornell, Nick Spencer and Nathan Edmundson, among others. So would you like to see VEI pursue any of these writers? Especially since DC has started tapping into VEI's talent pool lately (Venditti, Jordan, Zircher).

I've said several times that Cornell would be perfect for Ninjak/Secret Weapons. Diggle, Fialkov and Edmundson would all be good fits for Eternal Warrior, IMHO, and Spencer could do for HARD Corps what he did for THUNDER Agents. Fialkov might also be the type of writer who could tap into the potential of RAI.

Thoughts?
Not a fan of Nick Spencer or Paul Cornell. I loved the Wisdom mini-series but I thought Cornell's Stormwatch was terrible and Demon Knights just okay. Nick Spencer is the new hotness but personally I think the emperor-in-training has no clothes.

Diggle on the other hand is a proven talent who spent years writing for British comics before coming across the pond, he's got proven chops and any company would be lucky to have him.

Fialkov would be a huge "get" for Valiant. I Vampire is/was one of the real surprises of the New 52 and I thought his Masters of the Universe: The Origin of Skeletor one-shot was one of the best single issues I read last year. If Justin Jordan ever leaves Shadowman, Fialkov would be my #1 pick to take over writing duties.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by paradise »

I can't speak for any of the creators mentioned here, but I am good friends with one of the people mentioned above. We have talked about some of the things going on at DC comics, about how many times he and other creators have been burned by constant editorial meddling. Dan Didio has very little respect about commitments to creative talent. For these guys, it's not about them being Me-centric. It's about editorial that approves story lines and plots, then arbitrarily changes things. A writer on a comic book writes a long plot line, usually a year or so, then submitting it to the publisher. It's a lot of work to do the "pitch" and when it's approved, and then changed a month later to melt better with another idea that just came up, makes the writer wonder how their talent is utilized.

As far as them coming to Valiant, it's a matter of money and exposure.

1. Valiant can probably not afford to pay the same per-script or per-page rates as the big two.
2. The exposure a creator gets from a Valiant project may not be the same as one from a big two project. Numbers are not the same, promotional budgets are different.

Those are all things to consider. I think my friend would make a FANTASTIC addition to Valiant writer roster. I personally think he's one of the best writers in comics PERIOD, but I have seen him go through big highs and big lows with both work-for-hire and creator-owned stuff, and it's even wonder why someone would stay in this business.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by grendeljd »

Xtianhardy wrote:Fialkov would be a huge "get" for Valiant. I Vampire is/was one of the real surprises of the New 52 and I thought his Masters of the Universe: The Origin of Skeletor one-shot was one of the best single issues I read last year. If Justin Jordan ever leaves Shadowman, Fialkov would be my #1 pick to take over writing duties.
Agreed - I really liked his storytelling style in I, Vampire. Based on that alone, he'd do well playing in the supernatural corner of the Valiant Universe. If not Shadowman, perhaps a Dr. Mirage title?
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by nutflush76 »

My thinking about the issue is kind of along the lines of what Paradise is saying. Unless a writer really wants to write a particular Valiant book for some reason, I think most top talent is going to be a little out of Valiant's reach at this point.

Valiant is going to be better served getting up and coming talent or some of the Big 2's "B list" talent. I think that getting a guy on the verge of breaking out because people would be interested in seeing what the guy was working on in the past and that would get a little exposure for Valiant.

Of course the key is finding that guy at the right time!

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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by 400yrs »

BugsySig wrote:Andy Diggle and Joshua Hale Fialkov are the latest DC talents to walk away from titles due to editorial "oversight". They join a list that includes Paul Cornell, Nick Spencer and Nathan Edmundson, among others. So would you like to see VEI pursue any of these writers? Especially since DC has started tapping into VEI's talent pool lately (Venditti, Jordan, Zircher).

I've said several times that Cornell would be perfect for Ninjak/Secret Weapons. Diggle, Fialkov and Edmundson would all be good fits for Eternal Warrior, IMHO, and Spencer could do for HARD Corps what he did for THUNDER Agents. Fialkov might also be the type of writer who could tap into the potential of RAI.

Thoughts?

ALL of the names you mention are people who started doing and had some success with indy / creator owned work. Not sure if they'd go from one place where they are constrained by editors to another.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by paradise »

nutflush76 wrote:Valiant is going to be better served getting up and coming talent or some of the Big 2's "B list" talent. I think that getting a guy on the verge of breaking out because people would be interested in seeing what the guy was working on in the past and that would get a little exposure for Valiant.
Of course the key is finding that guy at the right time!
Except that then you just become a farm system for top 2 :) There is no way out of this, the system is pretty effed up. I am not a union guy (not a fan) generally but this is one instance where a structure would help. These guys are all freelancers and are all taken advantage of. I know too many of them personally, living in LA and owning a comic shop, to know that they are all constantly being mistreated.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by davidb »

greg wrote:I don't know much about the writers you've listed, but I'd be more interested in their complaints against DC.

Valiant's success is in no small part due to the vision and guidance of the creative and editorial leadership.

Were the writers against what they felt were "constraints" by their DC editors?
That could happen at Valiant if they're trying to do something that's not "Valiant" according to leadership.

I think it really depends on what caused them to leave DC... and whether Valiant leadership would be offering an alternative, or more of the same.

Valiant is bigger than any one writer or artist... and I can see how that might not work for some writers or artists who might want to be in the spotlight.

I'm not saying any of these guys were "me-centric", but it makes more sense for Valiant to keep looking at the whole before worrying about who's working on each part.
Bleeding Cool's saying that Fialkov walked because DC ordered him to kill John Stewart.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by paradise »

davidb wrote: Bleeding Cool's saying that Fialkov walked because DC ordered him to kill John Stewart.
But it's not specifically the fact that they wanted to kill of a character, it's the fact that he turned in a whole plot line for a year or more of his two books, outlining his idea for the books, very cool stuff, trying to apply his noir background to the titles, to tell more personal stories, not necessarily the "giant space opera" they were doing previously. They approved it and he wrote a couple of issues, and then editorial came up with a different plan to kill of JS for a quick buck 'cause Death of Robin worked so well for them, and they told him to redo everything and he said "Eff you" and left.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by hawkeyeps »

I think the chain at Marvel and DC goes like this-

Accountant>Marketing>Editor>Creator

Where as I think Valiant is more like this-

Editor>Creator>Marketing>Accountant

One system seeks to make money the other seeks to make good comics.

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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by paradise »

hawkeyeps wrote:I think the chain at Marvel and DC goes like this-
Accountant>Marketing>Editor>Creator
Sadly, I think the chain at DC is more like:
Editor > Creator > Editor> Creator > Editor> Creator gets angry > Editor> creator leaves the book
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by lorddunlow »

davidb wrote:
greg wrote:I don't know much about the writers you've listed, but I'd be more interested in their complaints against DC.

Valiant's success is in no small part due to the vision and guidance of the creative and editorial leadership.

Were the writers against what they felt were "constraints" by their DC editors?
That could happen at Valiant if they're trying to do something that's not "Valiant" according to leadership.

I think it really depends on what caused them to leave DC... and whether Valiant leadership would be offering an alternative, or more of the same.

Valiant is bigger than any one writer or artist... and I can see how that might not work for some writers or artists who might want to be in the spotlight.

I'm not saying any of these guys were "me-centric", but it makes more sense for Valiant to keep looking at the whole before worrying about who's working on each part.
Bleeding Cool's saying that Fialkov walked because DC ordered him to kill John Stewart.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by kjjohanson »

paradise wrote:
hawkeyeps wrote:I think the chain at Marvel and DC goes like this-
Accountant>Marketing>Editor>Creator
Sadly, I think the chain at DC is more like:
Editor > Creator > Editor> Creator > Editor> Creator gets angry > Editor> creator leaves the book
The bigger problem with Marvel and DC is that they have parent companies directing creative to do something for financial reasons. For example, I'm sure it's no coincidence, but rather for cross-promotion, that just before the Spider-man 3 movie came out, suddenly Spidey was back in the black costume for a reason which didn't make sense considering why he ditched it in the first place. (If MJ had been shot and was unconscious during that storyline, I could buy it, but as the story was written, not quite.) Also why Marvel published a half-assed Captain Marvel title every few years in the 80s and 90s; they need to publish something to keep the trademark so DC doesn't grab it for Shazam.

If the need to sell video games wasn't more important than good comics, Valiant may not have gone through the mess of the late 90s.

So yeah, hawkeyeps has it right, I think. I don't mind cross-promotion, as long as creative is driving how it happens.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by hawkeyeps »

paradise wrote:
hawkeyeps wrote:I think the chain at Marvel and DC goes like this-
Accountant>Marketing>Editor>Creator
Sadly, I think the chain at DC is more like:
Editor > Creator > Editor> Creator > Editor> Creator gets angry > Editor> creator leaves the book
Nice one Ed :thumb:

That's why I find Zircher's departure so baffling it was his first foray in to co-writing and everything was going swimingly with Shadowman, I think it's safe to say he won't be writing for DC so maybe it's not as important to him what he is drawing.

There are 2 philosophies of business-

1. I do the thing I do to produce a worthy product or service and if I do so I deserve to make money.

2. I do what I do to make money and the product or service are secondary as long as I get paid.

I know which category you fall in to and that is why it is a pleasure to deal with you.

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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by nutflush76 »

I think being upset with your boss is not something that is unique to comics. It's just that in the world of comics it is a little easier to to walk off your job, at least if you have somewhat of a name. The guy writing the DC kids title may not have that freedom. But I digress.

I just think that the problem lies between writing for someone else's book, writing for love, and writing for yourself. The reason that the Image books are some of the best on the market right now.

The creators are creating for themselves.

If you write for any company, Marvel, DC, IDW, Dynamite, Zenoscope, and even Valiant, you are working with someone else's characters, writing someone else's storylines, and you are responsible for the financial success of that property. Sometimes the creator just needs to realize that they aren't going to get to write the story that they want to write.

Now, these work the best when there is some sort of back and forth between editorial and the creative departments. I'm not sure what is going on at DC, but I would suspect that there is some breakdown in communication somewhere.

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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by Savant »

400yrs wrote:
BugsySig wrote:Andy Diggle and Joshua Hale Fialkov are the latest DC talents to walk away from titles due to editorial "oversight". They join a list that includes Paul Cornell, Nick Spencer and Nathan Edmundson, among others. So would you like to see VEI pursue any of these writers? Especially since DC has started tapping into VEI's talent pool lately (Venditti, Jordan, Zircher).

I've said several times that Cornell would be perfect for Ninjak/Secret Weapons. Diggle, Fialkov and Edmundson would all be good fits for Eternal Warrior, IMHO, and Spencer could do for HARD Corps what he did for THUNDER Agents. Fialkov might also be the type of writer who could tap into the potential of RAI.

Thoughts?

ALL of the names you mention are people who started doing and had some success with indy / creator owned work. Not sure if they'd go from one place where they are constrained by editors to another.
Marvel & DC would be more difficult to work for than Valiant, in particular because of what has been mentioned, parent companies looking for profit. The upside with Marvel & DC is the "Big Two" pay more.

I would say another difficulty working for the "Big Two," in comparison to a company like Valiant, is the long history in those two companies. There's so much to wade through. Granted, DC has its reboot, so it's not as murky in that regard, but there are still a lot of hurdles to go through in terms of creative process.......You look at Valiant, they've essentially started up the new version of the Valiant Universe from scratch. There's a lot more creative freedom, in that sense.

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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by Cyberstrike »

Just because one creator could do great work for one company doesn't mean s/he's going to great work in another company.
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Re: Jilted DC Talent to VALIANT?

Post by dornwolf »

Surely some of the mid-tier guys who've been burned by Marvel and/or DC could come do a Valiant book. Seriously, if Dynamite can get some of these guys Valiant must be able to as well.


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