Seriously frustrated with not being able to get variants

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:29 pm

The constant number of extremely hard to get variants is starting to discourage me. The shop I opened up a pull box at, just to get Valiant, just doesn't order enough to get them. After market prices are just too high. It really sucks as my favorite covers have been unattainable for me.

The stories have been good though.

So far I am missing the following.

X-O #1 Djurdevic Variant
X-O #1 2nd print Arturo Lozzi cover
X-O #1 3rd print sketch cover
X-O #1 blank cover

X-O #2 Lozzi Variant
X-O #2 2nd print

Harbinger #1 Braithwaite Variant
Harbinger #1 Djurdjevic Variant
Harbinger #1 blank cover

Harbinger #2 Braithwaite Variant

Bloodshot #1 Aja Variant
Bloodshot #1 Ribic Variant

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:30 pm

How many Valiant gold books did you own in 1995?

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:34 pm

greg wrote:How many Valiant gold books did you own in 1995?

All of them.

GGSAE · Post by **GGSAE** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:40 pm

greg wrote:How many Valiant gold books did you own in 1995?

I'm starting to think they may become cheaper down the road (not including the QR variants as they're just too few of them to go below the 40-50$ range), but that will be because the number of variants, if they continue at this pace, will be absolutely staggering! I'm having a tough time already distinguishing amongst the covers, give it a year....holy hell!

GGSAE · Post by **GGSAE** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:43 pm

x-omatic wrote:The constant number of extremely hard to get variants is starting to discourage me. The shop I opened up a pull box at, just to get Valiant, just doesn't order enough to get them. After market prices are just too high. It really sucks as my favorite covers have been unattainable for me.

The stories have been good though.

So far I am missing the following.

X-O #1 Djurdevic Variant
X-O #1 2nd print Arturo Lozzi cover
X-O #1 3rd print sketch cover
X-O #1 blank cover

X-O #2 Lozzi Variant
X-O #2 2nd print

Harbinger #1 Braithwaite Variant
Harbinger #1 Djurdjevic Variant
Harbinger #1 blank cover

Harbinger #2 Braithwaite Variant

Bloodshot #1 Aja Variant
Bloodshot #1 Ribic Variant

I'm sure over time I will only really focus on the variants of the title I like the most....obviously if I can get other variants cheap I will, but the preference will be my favorites, and that's harbinger so far.

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:45 pm

x-omatic wrote:
greg wrote:How many Valiant gold books did you own in 1995?
All of them.

In 1995?!?

That would have been thousands of dollars in the most limited Valiant variant books.
If you could do that then, why can't you do that now?

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:54 pm

greg wrote:
x-omatic wrote:
greg wrote:How many Valiant gold books did you own in 1995?
All of them.
In 1995?!? That would have been thousands of dollars in the most limited Valiant variant books.
If you could do that then, why can't you do that now?

I worked part time at a comic shop in Michigan and was able to get them through Capital. It helped that I ordered many of the books and VALIANT didn't have they order minimums like they do today.

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:56 pm

x-omatic wrote:
greg wrote:
x-omatic wrote:
greg wrote:How many Valiant gold books did you own in 1995?
All of them.
In 1995?!? That would have been thousands of dollars in the most limited Valiant variant books.
If you could do that then, why can't you do that now?
I worked part time at a comic shop in Michigan and was able to get them through Capital. It helped that I ordered many of the books and VALIANT didn't have they order minimums like they do today.

I can't believe you're "seriously frustrated" about variants now, when you were possibly the ONLY kid in America who had them all back in the day.

I didn't own a SINGLE Valiant variant book for 10 years... meanwhile you're already frustrated after 2 months.

Is there a pea under your mattress, too?

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:09 pm

greg wrote:How many Valiant gold books did you own in 1995?

In 1995, about a year after the high of Valiant distribution, there were between 15 and 17 gold books (depending on how you count them, not counting Deathmate). This was 3 years after Valiant started. They were given to retailers, but they were primarily marketed as a fan-promotion (I remember Valiant calling it the gold book promotion for fans). Fans could get them for free at conventions (from Valiant if warranted) or by promoting Valiant, writing letters, etc. Or they could buy them. Fans could not get them directly for purchase through stores or distributors. I don't know what the prices where in 1995, but I know I bought my XO Manowar 0 Gold for $30 in 1994. Prices probably were lower in 1995, as Valiant was was already starting to wane in popularity, although speculators may still have been asking for outrageous prices.

In 2012, 3 months after Valiant relaunched, there are 12 variant covers...not counting the estimated 16 additional variants coming out in the following three months and not counting the second or third print covers. These are not generally given away to fans (although it is great to see Valiant giving them to the panel participants, and maybe Valiant will allow for people to write in with promotions as well), and designed to primarily an incentive to order more comics. As such, the pricing scheme (determined by the market, and in part determined by the rarity due to the number of orders required) means that they range in price from $4 (for the pull box variants) to greater than $100.

In 1995, I had about 8 or 9 gold books (rough guess, I got some from Valiant for my newsletter, and I bought the XO Manowar 0 gold, got a couple when I visited the Valiant offices). In 2012, if I want the incentive issues, I need to be prepared to buy them, and after 6 months Valiant will already have almost double the number of incentive books that the original Valiant ever had. At this pace, in an equivalent 3 years, and assuming they DON'T add any more titles, Valiant will have approximately 168 incentive covers. In addition, aside from Eternal Warrior 1 and Unity 1, Valiant didn't have multiple incentives for each issue.

Yes, I understand it is a different market, and I completely understand the rationale Ed makes for why Valiant should do this ( don't know if I agree with it 100%, but I understand it).

But to try to justify it based on 1995 Valiant is ludicrous. The time scale is different, the marketing of these incentives is different, the numbers of incentives is different.

Chris

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:14 pm

GGSAE wrote:
greg wrote:How many Valiant gold books did you own in 1995?
I'm starting to think they may become cheaper down the road (not including the QR variants as they're just too few of them to go below the 40-50$ range), but that will be because the number of variants, if they continue at this pace, will be absolutely staggering! I'm having a tough time already distinguishing amongst the covers, give it a year....holy hell!

Agreed.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:16 pm

depluto wrote:
GGSAE wrote:
greg wrote:How many Valiant gold books did you own in 1995?
I'm starting to think they may become cheaper down the road (not including the QR variants as they're just too few of them to go below the 40-50$ range), but that will be because the number of variants, if they continue at this pace, will be absolutely staggering! I'm having a tough time already distinguishing amongst the covers, give it a year....holy hell!
Agreed.

I think some may, but not all. Just anecdotally, I haven't seen as many of the Harbinger #2 1:20 variant on ebay as I have any of the #1 1:20 variants.

Chris

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:22 pm

cjv wrote:But to try to justify it based on 1995 Valiant is ludicrous. The time scale is different, the marketing of these incentives is different, the numbers of incentives is different.

You made ALL my points for me and called it "ludicrous".

If the time scale is different (harder because it's less time), the marketing is different (harder because the books aren't printed at 5,000 copies), and the number of incentives is different (more than before)...

You've just given me three reasons that collecting all the Valiant variants in 2012 would HAVE TO BE harder than collecting all the Valiant variants in the mid-1990s.

I'm saying it was IMPOSSIBLE in the mid-1990s, except for a few lucky kids, and therefore, pretending that Valiant has done something horrible by making it nearly impossible (AGAIN) is ludicrous.

I've had a driver's license for 20 years, I've never been in a wreck, and I've supported the auto industry as much as possible since 1992. I'm a "proven, true fan" of cars.

So, I'm REALLY FRUSTRATED that I can't afford a Lamborghini. They OWE me... right?

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:23 pm

The only variant covers I get are for Iron Man (going for 100 percent on the entire history of the character). I always wait a few months and pick them up way cheaper at cons or eBay instead of paying a premium when they first hit shelves. Of course this is a different animal from Valiant, but time will dilute the value of most of these (IMO).

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:25 pm

When Valiant originally came up with the gold cover program I actually wrote them a letter complaining, saying it would be impossible to maintain a complete set of the books (since these weren't being offered in any meaningful way to the public). They responded with a nice letter and a gold Archer and Armstrong 0.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:54 pm

greg wrote:
cjv wrote:But to try to justify it based on 1995 Valiant is ludicrous. The time scale is different, the marketing of these incentives is different, the numbers of incentives is different.
You made ALL my points for me and called it "ludicrous".

If the time scale is different (harder because it's less time), the marketing is different (harder because the books aren't printed at 5,000 copies), and the number of incentives is different (more than before)...

You've just given me three reasons that collecting all the Valiant variants in 2012 would HAVE TO BE harder than collecting all the Valiant variants in the mid-1990s.

But I think the question is doesn't it have to be harder? Yes, it is harder for those reasons...but are those reasons a requirement of the market today, or simply the by product of how VEI is printing/marketing their books? If it is the former, than there isn't much that we, as fans, can do. If it is the latter, then it would appear to be VEI decision to pursue that avenue of marketing/promotion, possible at the expense of some fans.

I'm saying it was IMPOSSIBLE in the mid-1990s, except for a few lucky kids, and therefore, pretending that Valiant has done something horrible by making it nearly impossible (AGAIN) is ludicrous.

I don't think it was impossible in the mid-1990's. Yes, maybe to get every single gold book, but not to get one in general. In every Valiant comic they had a stories about giving gold books away to people. The whole concept was marketed as "for the fans" - not as incentive to retailers to buy issues and maybe the fans can get some. It was promoted by Valiant as a "reward" to fans who promote Valiant in some way. And I know that word quickly spread that they gave away many more gold books than they wrote about. I remember thinking to myself in the mid 1990's any number of ways I could try to get a gold book.

Now, maybe it was just marketing. Maybe they were being shrewd business men, and selling the concept to the fans instead of the retailers. While now, since they are directly marketed as incentive books to retailers for ordering a certain number of copies, the fan simply sees the money. I can buy one for $XX. If a store orders X copies, they can get these variants. The internet may have a lot to do with that (as well as eBay). The change in how comics are marketed, the increase in direct online stores (like DCBS, MailOrderComics, etc) may have a lot to do with that. But for me, the perception of these variants is fundamentally different than the gold books from Valiant. These seem, to me, to be purely a marketing ploy designed to get retailers to buy a certain number of copies, and that possibly they could make their way into the hands of the fans for a price. The gold books seemed, to me, to be a reward to the fans for buying, reading, and promoting Valiant comics.

Maybe I was naive back then (not saying I wasn't), and certainly in some ways it is easier to get a variant right now (just hop on to eBay, talk to your comic store, order one through DCBS, etc). But what is fundamentally different in my (flawed?) perception is the purpose and goal of these variants versus the gold books - an incentive to retailers to order more, or an incentive to the fans to promote Valiant.

I've had a driver's license for 20 years, I've never been in a wreck, and I've supported the auto industry as much as possible since 1992. I'm a "proven, true fan" of cars.

So, I'm REALLY FRUSTRATED that I can't afford a Lamborghini. They OWE me... right?

Invalid comparison.

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:59 pm

cjv wrote:
greg wrote:I've had a driver's license for 20 years, I've never been in a wreck, and I've supported the auto industry as much as possible since 1992. I'm a "proven, true fan" of cars.

So, I'm REALLY FRUSTRATED that I can't afford a Lamborghini. They OWE me... right?
Invalid comparison.

You're supposed to completely ignore statements that prove you wrong, not repeat them and weakly proclaim them "invalid"... haven't you learned anything this election year?

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:11 pm

On the question of whether the new Valiant should use variant or gimmick covers, a great man once said...

greg wrote:
IMJ wrote:No.
Believe it or not, this also sums up my feelings.

No variants.

Does Harbinger #1 need a gold logo?

Would Rai #3 be better if it was available in purple?

Take it back to the beginning... does Action Comics #1 need two versions?
Does Amazing Fantasy #15 need a version with a different colored building?

Bring it back to Valiant...
Can anyone name a single variant issue from Valiant where the
"regular" version is a highly prized comic by itself?

Rai #9? nope.
Turok #1? nope.
Magnus #21? nope.
Unity #0? nope... A great comic, but nothing extremely exciting about the blue one.
Archer & Armstrong #0? nope. Another great comic... but still cover price after 15 years.

What does a variant issue do to the "regular"? It makes it "nothing special". Every time.
It even becomes known as the "common" version. Common. Yuck.

Why would Valiant (or any publisher) want to make the MAJORITY of their books "nothing special"?

50,000 copies are nothing special, but 5,000 are "limited awesomeness".
20,000 copies are no big deal, but there are 1,000 that are "super rares".

It's like saying, "Yeah, we know there's nothing special about the books we print,
but to make up for it we make a few that are harder to find."

When the "variant madness" which is back in full force is over... what are you left with?
A bunch of books that are "regular" so no one wants them...
...and a small batch of books that used to be super-hot,
then they became the 21st Century version of Brigade #1 Gold.

Valiant's pre-Unity books are everyone's favorite Valiant books.
Does anyone believe pre-Unity are the best books because of Archer & Armstrong #0 Gold?

When your company is based on "variants", you end up "bronzing the poop".

Make a great comic book. Let what is INSIDE the cover matter.

People went nuts for Brigade #1 Gold.
People dropped hard earned cash on Darker Image #1 Glow-In-The-Dark.
People traded Silver Age Marvel for Blacklight Edition Dawn #1.

What did any of them get?

I just want to buy a Valiant comic that's got a great story.
Valiant should be different. It's what made it great in the first place.
The world can live without PSILords #1 Gold, 2007 Edition.

(...and no, if you're wondering, I haven't seen Jerry Maguire lately.)

And I agree.

But I also think it is really great of VEI to be giving out free copies of variants or convention exclusive books out to fans at conventions. I feel that that holds true to the legacy of the original Valiant gold logo books and I applaud VEI for it!

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:30 pm

Heath wrote:On the question of whether the new Valiant should use variant or gimmick covers, a great man once said...

greg wrote:
IMJ wrote:No.
Believe it or not, this also sums up my feelings.

No variants.

Does Harbinger #1 need a gold logo?

Would Rai #3 be better if it was available in purple?

Take it back to the beginning... does Action Comics #1 need two versions?
Does Amazing Fantasy #15 need a version with a different colored building?

Bring it back to Valiant...
Can anyone name a single variant issue from Valiant where the
"regular" version is a highly prized comic by itself?

Rai #9? nope.
Turok #1? nope.
Magnus #21? nope.
Unity #0? nope... A great comic, but nothing extremely exciting about the blue one.
Archer & Armstrong #0? nope. Another great comic... but still cover price after 15 years.

What does a variant issue do to the "regular"? It makes it "nothing special". Every time.
It even becomes known as the "common" version. Common. Yuck.

Why would Valiant (or any publisher) want to make the MAJORITY of their books "nothing special"?

50,000 copies are nothing special, but 5,000 are "limited awesomeness".
20,000 copies are no big deal, but there are 1,000 that are "super rares".

It's like saying, "Yeah, we know there's nothing special about the books we print,
but to make up for it we make a few that are harder to find."

When the "variant madness" which is back in full force is over... what are you left with?
A bunch of books that are "regular" so no one wants them...
...and a small batch of books that used to be super-hot,
then they became the 21st Century version of Brigade #1 Gold.

Valiant's pre-Unity books are everyone's favorite Valiant books.
Does anyone believe pre-Unity are the best books because of Archer & Armstrong #0 Gold?

When your company is based on "variants", you end up "bronzing the poop".

Make a great comic book. Let what is INSIDE the cover matter.

People went nuts for Brigade #1 Gold.
People dropped hard earned cash on Darker Image #1 Glow-In-The-Dark.
People traded Silver Age Marvel for Blacklight Edition Dawn #1.

What did any of them get?

I just want to buy a Valiant comic that's got a great story.
Valiant should be different. It's what made it great in the first place.
The world can live without PSILords #1 Gold, 2007 Edition.

(...and no, if you're wondering, I haven't seen Jerry Maguire lately.)
And I agree.

But I also think it is really great of VEI to be giving out free copies of variants or convention exclusive books out to fans at conventions. I feel that that holds true to the legacy of the original Valiant gold logo books and I applaud VEI for it!

The great man who said all that didn't have millions invested in a company that will either sink or swim based on comic sales in today's market.

Everyone's a genius with great ideas until they have to actually make the idea a reality.
Meanwhile, the guys living in reality are criticized by the great idea people who would have done it differently.

Only one of these groups has actually done anything at the end of the day.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:35 pm

greg wrote:
cjv wrote:
greg wrote:I've had a driver's license for 20 years, I've never been in a wreck, and I've supported the auto industry as much as possible since 1992. I'm a "proven, true fan" of cars.

So, I'm REALLY FRUSTRATED that I can't afford a Lamborghini. They OWE me... right?
Invalid comparison.
You're supposed to completely ignore statements that prove you wrong, not repeat them and weakly proclaim them "invalid"... haven't you learned anything this election year?

If I did, shouldn't I be running for office?

R Daneel · Post by **R Daneel** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:08 am

greg wrote:Everyone's a genius with great ideas until they have to actually make the idea a reality.
Meanwhile, the guys living in reality are criticized by the great idea people who would have done it differently.

Only one of these groups has actually done anything at the end of the day.

Sig worthy ... especially the first line. I would expand on that thought but would accused of being the Debby Downer of the boards with only negativity and personal attacks in my arsenal.

cinlach@aol.com · Post by **cinlach@aol.com** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:23 am

I'm also falling into the frustrated catagory, but it's definitely a low priority frustration.

My shop tried to order the second and third prints, and were shorted by the distributor with no copies on the horizon.

The only reason I have the QR Variants for X-O and Harbinger are because I was lucky enough to get the X-O from the HeroesCon panel, and a friend at the same panel gave me the Harbinger he picked up after getting his question answered.

Now that sweet Bloodshot 1:50 is out and my shop just got the one copy with again, no copies on the horizon.

I'm seriously dreading the 1:100 Neal Adams A&A variant...

But, before I get accused of whining about it I want to clarify that yes, I'm frustrated that I can't find the books but I do fully intend on tracking them down at some point. I'm just an instant gratification personality...and that's a character flaw I've been dealing with for awhile now.

So yeah, I want those issues. Like a lot. And yes, I'm frustrated that the only avenue I seem to have at this point is to potentially drop $75 or more on the Bloodshot on eBay, but all things considered it could be much worse. The actual books could suck, and the company I've wanted to return for 15 years could be foundering...so with that perspective a little frustration about the variant books isn't that big a deal.

I'll just have to wait for the books to cool off a little before I can pick them up.

Tom Petty said it best, the waiting is the hardest part.

cinlach@aol.com · Post by **cinlach@aol.com** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:24 am

We should make a poll on this topic.

I vote "ice cream".

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:00 pm

We're just spoiled. I sympathize with variant frustration -- but if 10 years ago somebody told you we could have the Valiant Universe back but it would mean a bunch of variant covers, would anyone have complained or objected?

betterthanezra · Post by **betterthanezra** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:14 am

There were a total of two Bloodshot 1:50 that know of at the show. Both bought by board members. I got lucky and happen to be one of those people that bought it. It's a gorgeous cover in person.

-Brian

Aram · Post by **Aram** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:11 am

You want frustrated? Try agreeing to pay the costs for 100 copies of bloodshot and 20 copies of harbinger #2 just to have all the 1:50 variants and the harby 1:20 come in damaged, the covers ripped off and then sent back to diamond not knowing of you will get replacements.

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