Virgin Comics

[Zaphod]

You honestly don't think anyone will confuse Valiant comics now with Valiant comics from the early 90s? Or even the Akklaim comics?

Why would that be, praytell? Would the new Valiant comics not be enough like Marvel or DC comics?

Go back and re-read when I said, more than twice now, that it is the people that manage the company that changed, just like the people that managed Marvel in the 90's changed when Toy Biz bought the company.

The material, the characters, is the same for both VALIANT and Marvel. It is the people that make the comics that are difference, so it is the decision making that is different.

Just like VEI wouldn't make the mistake of printing one million copies of a new Harbinger #1, Marvel doesn't make the mistake of having multiple editors in chief or buying their own distributor.

For some reason, you three think that retailers are smart enough to tell when Marvel changed management but too stupid to know when it happens to VALIANT.

It doesn't have anything to do with retailers intelligence. The bottom line is profit. When Marvel was in Chapter 11, their comics weren't selling either. It took them years to rebuild the trust in the surviving retailers.

You seem to think that it is vitally important that retailers know that the ownership group of Valiant has changed. It just isn't a factor in their minds. The factor is, "will customers buy a returning Valiant brand."?

It doesn't matter how retailers feel about the new ownership group or if it does, it is such a small percentage of what is important it barely matters.

What matters is will the buyers market out there, who are primarily purchasing Marvel and DC, buy into a returning Valiant and can the retailer afford to order alot of stock to take up limited space in their shop.

The answer, at first, is going to be quite hesitant.

For the last time (I need to stop saying that) stop asking us though, and go ask ACTUAL RETAILERS.

[Sensationalcomics]

Interesting discussion you guys have going on here.

Ok, first off, how can you say that the 1st series of Valiant failed?? The goal of Voyager (notice I said Voyager, not Shooter) was to sell comics. In 5 years time they went from being a nobody to the 3rd largest comic book publisher in the industry. By 1994 when they sold their company for 65 million dollars they had published over 80 million comic books (hmm 80 million x lets say 2.25 avg cover price, that’s around 180 million in sales). Figure, say, they made a 25% profit that would net them another $45 million. So lets see, say 110 million dollars off of a 4 million dollar investment over 5 years, yea I guess you can say they were a big time failure. They investors accomplished exactly what they wanted to do; they wanted to make money off of comics. That my boys, is a success in my book. Remember something, the week Turok #1 came out it was number 4 in sales, lets say that again, with a print run of 1,750,000 copies that sold out mind you, it was only number 4!! Now, Shooters goal was to build a good comic universe. Valiant is widely considered to be the most important introduction of a new group of characters since the Marvel revival of the 60’s, once again a success.

I have been reading comics since 1970 (I was 5), and have been a serious collector since 1976 (yes at 11, don’t want to hear it, I bought my first copy of Amazing Spiderman #1 when I was 12 for 50 bucks, hey baseball cards were worth money back then lol), so in 30 years of interacting with dealers I learned one thing, they will try to sell what ever they “think” is hot. If Valiant picks up steam again, they will be all over it, VEI does not need to worry about that. The 90’s comic market was based on speculation, nothing else. Tropic Comics & Superheroes both opened 2nd stores in south Florida with just what the made over the Death of Superman issue. I was selling sport cards at cons back then, and I always had a board up behind my table with comics on it to make a few extra bucks. At shows of 100+ dealers, I was the only one selling comics. After the Death, every sports card dealer sold comics at shows. Now back then there were maybe 2 comic cons a year in South Florida, but there was a card show or con every weekend in just my local area not even all of South Florida. I watched as everyone and their brother jumped on every new comic that came out each week thinking they would be able to sell it for huge profits in just a few months. Now how can you fault the comic companies for making as many books as they can possibly sell. Do you really think a comic company cares if your book is worth money down the road? Look at the industry today, incentive covers to push dealers into buying more copies a book, multiple print runs on books that sell out, etc… That Voyager took advantage of that situation and made a ton of money does not make them a failure, just points out the greedy #&%$@ that they were, they had no care for the collector or their company for that matter, just the buck.

As for dealers, in the area I live now there are 6 or 7 comic shops within 15 miles of my house (which really shocked me when I moved here; in South Florida most of the comic shops are long gone). 1 of them doesn’t carry new books, 4 of them the owners that have no idea who or what Valiant is or was, and the other that I have been to has all of their old store stock boxed up and it only comes out on store sales. Now the last store has been there for a really long time with new owners over the years. The current owner thinks that books from the 80’s & 90’s in general are just trash to be sold in dime boxes. I can’t even begin to tell you what I have pulled out of those boxes over the last few years, complete runs of the 80’s black & whites, Valiants & Acclaims etc… Now here that would be 4 dealers willing to start carrying VEI books if they started out with a good product, 1 that would have no interest at all & the other who knows. Guess my point would be how many dealers today have been around long enough to have remembered Valiants heyday. In truth their store would have to be what? 12 or 13 years old, in this area or in South Florida it would be a very hard to find a store that old.

As for the Acclaim tries for the Valiant titles, how can you think that they were over printed, most of those print runs would be small by today’s standards. Just remember Acclaim didn’t want to sell comics, it was a tool to help their video game sales, and the Turok & Shadowman series are some of the best selling video games titles ever.

If VEI is serious about building a good company and comic universe they would be smart to stick with the original vision of the Valiant universe. If they do it right, the dealers will jump on board. It wont take us long to see where their true interest lie once and if the truly get started printing regular book series again.

[ncameron]

Did any retail stores actually care when Toy Biz bought Marvel? I thought they were more excited when Marvel came back to diamond so that they only had to fill out one invoice again.

Which only happened due to the different management styles/direction.

The old management wanted their own distributor. The new management wanted to deal with Diamond.

Not exactly.

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=854

Marvel ran out of money running Heroes World in Early 97
7) Facet by Facet: Justice Department Eyes Diamond

Remember CBG’s top comics industry news story of 1996? Diamond Comic Distributors bought Capital City Distribution, bringing an end to the “exclusivity wars” touched off when Marvel bought Heroes World Distribution in late 1994. Diamond and Capital had scrambled to sign other publishers to exclusive agreements in order to make up for the loss of Marvel. Diamond locked up DC, Image, Dark Horse, and others, contributing to Capital’s capitulation in July 1996.

Diamond further consolidated its position in early 1997, when Marvel, unwilling to continue its costly and trouble-plagued distribution experiment, closed Heroes World and turned over all direct-market distribution rights to Diamond. Where earlier in the decade the field was being contested by two large and several medium-sized regional distributors, in late 1997 more than 90% of comic-book distribution to comics shops is being handled by Diamond.


Whereas Marvel had not yet been merged with Toy Biz

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A961958260

Marvel Proposes a Merger With Toy Biz
By FLOYD NORRIS
Published: April 29, 1997

Marvels returning to Diamond was not a mangement choice by the new regime. It was a management choice by the old regime due to how much money Heroes World was costing them.

-neil

[Steve Topper]

Neil,

Stop it! You're trying to confuse MOTA with facts.

[siren3-4]

In truth their store would have to be what? 12 or 13 years old, in this area or in South Florida it would be a very hard to find a store that old.

I used to have 8 Comic shops within a 1/2 hour drive. (Broward County Florida) In early 2000 that was down to 2.

I am lucky to have a small LCS that I have been going to since I was a kid (almost 20 years now) that is still open. The owner used to have a Comics Knowledge test he would give to anyone that wanted to work there. Really nice guy - in his ebay store he has a picture of him and his shop from the late 70's or early 80's http://stores.ebay.com/Phils-Comic-Shoppe


Recently 3 other shops have sprung up and 1 closed within 2 months. Just adding some input . .

[ManofTheAtom]

Did any retail stores actually care when Toy Biz bought Marvel? I thought they were more excited when Marvel came back to diamond so that they only had to fill out one invoice again.

Which only happened due to the different management styles/direction.

The old management wanted their own distributor. The new management wanted to deal with Diamond.

Not exactly.

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=854

Marvel ran out of money running Heroes World in Early 97
7) Facet by Facet: Justice Department Eyes Diamond

Remember CBG’s top comics industry news story of 1996? Diamond Comic Distributors bought Capital City Distribution, bringing an end to the “exclusivity wars” touched off when Marvel bought Heroes World Distribution in late 1994. Diamond and Capital had scrambled to sign other publishers to exclusive agreements in order to make up for the loss of Marvel. Diamond locked up DC, Image, Dark Horse, and others, contributing to Capital’s capitulation in July 1996.

Diamond further consolidated its position in early 1997, when Marvel, unwilling to continue its costly and trouble-plagued distribution experiment, closed Heroes World and turned over all direct-market distribution rights to Diamond. Where earlier in the decade the field was being contested by two large and several medium-sized regional distributors, in late 1997 more than 90% of comic-book distribution to comics shops is being handled by Diamond.


Whereas Marvel had not yet been merged with Toy Biz

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A961958260

Marvel Proposes a Merger With Toy Biz
By FLOYD NORRIS
Published: April 29, 1997

Marvels returning to Diamond was not a mangement choice by the new regime. It was a management choice by the old regime due to how much money Heroes World was costing them.

-neil

Fair enough. That was still a management decision made by the old regime that failed.

What decisions that failed has the new management made?

[slym2none]

Neil,

Stop it! You're trying to confuse MOTA with facts.

-slym

[ManofTheAtom]

Hey, at least (unlike most people here) he did some actual research to argue his point.

That's a miracle by itself. People here never do that when having a discussion.

[Sensationalcomics]

I know Phils shop, I lived in Coral Springs. Even Phil used to have 2 stores, now he is down to the one in that little strip mall. Thats where I picked up most of my pre unity books for a dollar each.

[yardstick]

Good discussion...

[yardstick]

I know Phils shop, I lived in Coral Springs. Even Phil used to have 2 stores, now he is down to the one in that little strip mall. Thats where I picked up most of my pre unity books for a dollar each.

Welcome to the bored...

[Sensationalcomics]

For the current Marvel management would the whole Spiderman one more day saga count as a failure, it did not go over very well. Guess its never a good idea to erase 20 years of a characters history on an editors whim.

[siren3-4]

For the current Marvel management would the whole Spiderman one more day saga count as a failure, it did not go over very well. Guess its never a good idea to erase 20 years of a characters history on an editors whim.

I actually thought it was selling quite well . . .

And the recent Venom storyline has sold out as new people are jumping on (even if only for that story) . . .

[Chiclo]

Hey, at least (unlike most people here) he did some actual research to argue his point.

That's a miracle by itself. People here never do that when having a discussion.

meh, too much trouble for just getting you worked up.

It's what you get for consistently badmouthing Fabian's vision.

May you eat only goat for a week.

[geocarr]

Hey, at least (unlike most people here) he did some actual research to argue his point.

That's a miracle by itself. People here never do that when having a discussion.

meh, too much trouble for just getting you worked up.

It's what you get for consistently badmouthing Fabian's vision.

May you eat only goat for a week.

Goat's pretty good from what I hear. That's not punishment!

[Steve Topper]

meh, too much trouble for just getting you worked up.

It's what you get for consistently badmouthing Fabian's vision.

May you eat only goat for a week.

Goat's pretty good from what I hear. That's not punishment!

I actually raise Boer goats (meat goats) and we butcher and eat them. It's very good. When grilled, the steaks taste just like beef. And the meat is significantly lower in fats and cholesterol. This sounds like a cliche, but everything I've read regarding my goats says the meat has the health qualities of white meat chicken but tastes like beef.

Next time any of you are in Ohio, stop by and we'll grill up some Vincent!

[ManofTheAtom]

For the current Marvel management would the whole Spiderman one more day saga count as a failure, it did not go over very well. Guess its never a good idea to erase 20 years of a characters history on an editors whim.

I actually thought it was selling quite well . . .

And the recent Venom storyline has sold out as new people are jumping on (even if only for that story) . . .

True, Sensational.

As Lying in the Gutters pointed out, now when readers drop Amazing, they'll be dropping three titles, not one.

[ManofTheAtom]

Hey, at least (unlike most people here) he did some actual research to argue his point.

That's a miracle by itself. People here never do that when having a discussion.

meh, too much trouble for just getting you worked up.

It's what you get for consistently badmouthing Fabian's vision.

May you eat only goat for a week.

Fabian's vision was goats and semi-naked women for fanboys to fantasize about.

You respect that?

[iggy101us]

Hey, at least (unlike most people here) he did some actual research to argue his point.

That's a miracle by itself. People here never do that when having a discussion.

meh, too much trouble for just getting you worked up.

It's what you get for consistently badmouthing Fabian's vision.

May you eat only goat for a week.

Fabian's vision was goats and semi-naked women for fanboys to fantasize about.

You respect that?

Don't forget about the semi-naked women with 4 breasts.

[ManofTheAtom]

Hey, at least (unlike most people here) he did some actual research to argue his point.

That's a miracle by itself. People here never do that when having a discussion.

meh, too much trouble for just getting you worked up.

It's what you get for consistently badmouthing Fabian's vision.

May you eat only goat for a week.

Fabian's vision was goats and semi-naked women for fanboys to fantasize about.

You respect that?

Don't forget about the semi-naked women with 4 breasts.

That right there is symbolic of everything that VH 2 was about.

[Cyberstrike]

For the current Marvel management would the whole Spiderman one more day saga count as a failure, it did not go over very well. Guess its never a good idea to erase 20 years of a characters history on an editors whim.

I actually thought it was selling quite well . . .

And the recent Venom storyline has sold out as new people are jumping on (even if only for that story) . . .

I don't think so. Sales have been droped quite a bit and it seems most fans hated the idea from the start, the Anti-Venom character/storyline might get a small spike sales but after it's finished the sales will go down again.

Brand New Day basically going to be the Clone Saga 2

[Sensationalcomics]

For the current Marvel management would the whole Spiderman one more day saga count as a failure, it did not go over very well. Guess its never a good idea to erase 20 years of a characters history on an editors whim.

I actually thought it was selling quite well . . .

And the recent Venom storyline has sold out as new people are jumping on (even if only for that story) . . .

I would think that a story line like that would sell well, but the backlash that they received and are still receiving over that story line is intense. It is only going to hurt the title down the road. Then again we are talking about Marvel and Spidey and a long list of bad decisions, bring back his Parents, Clone Saga, let’s mutate him so he can have organic webs like in the movies, need I go on. That was just their latest bone head move for their main character, it was received so bad that Straczynski even came out and said that it wasn’t his idea to write it, that he was against it and pretty much forced to do it by Quesada. It has been known for years that Quesada didn’t like M.J. in the book and wanted her out, that the Marvel brass let him do it the way he did will go down in the books as one of the dumbest moves ever by a comic company.

[ManofTheAtom]

Didn't JMS claim that what he disagreed with was keeping the continuity and trying to fix it by explaining how everything still happened except for the marriage? That he was still for splitting them up but not how it was done?

[ncameron]

Didn't JMS claim that what he disagreed with was keeping the continuity and trying to fix it by explaining how everything still happened except for the marriage? That he was still for splitting them up but not how it was done?

There was an interview on newsarama where Quesada states that. JMS wanted to do something a little more in character but would change things even further.

I believe Quesada stated bringing back Gwen Stacy was where one disagreement occured.

-neil

[ManofTheAtom]

Didn't JMS claim that what he disagreed with was keeping the continuity and trying to fix it by explaining how everything still happened except for the marriage? That he was still for splitting them up but not how it was done?

There was an interview on newsarama where Quesada states that. JMS wanted to do something a little more in character but would change things even further.

That's what bothers me the most about the whole thing.

Spidey made a deal with the DEVIL, with Mephisto.

NO ONE in the Marvel Universe has ever made a deal with him and gotten what they wanted, it has ALWAYS backfired on them.

WHERE are the consequences here? There are none.

Even Everett K Ross in Black Panther suffered from his wish to get a pair of pants.