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 Post subject: HW2 event was it a flop?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:49:02 pm 
Harbinger rank: Ichinensei
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I'm really surprised there hasn't been any discussion concerning the event.

I personally thought it was terrible, the worst since the creation of Valiant.... in the 90's.

I don't think even Aftermath will wash out the crap it left in my mouth.

After the hot garbage buildup in Renegades and that one-shot with the original psiot and the build up of secret weapons.

WOW total letdown. where was Soloman? Where was that vampire psiot? Where was the huge battles?

it ended on a handshake!!!!!

what do you all think of it?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:08:35 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:23:12 am 
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.

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Flop. Feel scammed for my money in hopes of something awsome. Jadded towards DMG valiant. It will really make me question investing in other titles. Since the take over valiant has all but died. Im holding on for xo. Dont have hope for the new titles but will try incursion 1 bloodshot ongoing continuing with xo and for sure dysarts stuff. Valiant needs to get their squee together they have had lots of time now so ya. Least there is the walking dead

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:02:27 am 
Especially "dude." And "balls." Those terms work in the tech industry.
Especially "dude." And "balls." Those terms work in the tech industry.
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Definitely not what I wanted from Dinesh and Warren's last books.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:14:02 am 
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Flop. Disappointments have been noted in the other thread, but in retrospect, I think the biggest issue is that they didn't think to delay or add an issue and instead pieced together a 4th issue that is just someone explaining what happened. It takes any suspense or thrill out of the goings on, highlighting all the other faults. If that had been this upcoming AFTERMATH issue, that might've made some sense. but after the WTF moments in #3, to just have Peter Falk mumble through the parts Fred Savage doesn't really want to sit through really really really sucked.

They could've had a whole press release or more dedicated to the new EXTRA issue that the event was just too big and couldn't be contained as originally planned...that might've gotten more buyers to jump on.

And they (being VEI/DMG) have to see the sales numbers and have to consider it a flop as well. They had their core readers, but couldn't even top XO's diminishing numbers.

This would be a good place for someone to tally the sales numbers, but last I saw HW2 was somewhere down by NINJA-K and nowhere near XO. And I don't think board excitement encouraged any of the trade waiters to rush out for it.

On the other hand, I do have hopes for the new titles. They are all at least mildly interesting to me, but Livewire was more so before HW2 revealed itself. Plus these are the books where we'll really see what the new regime is up to. I think the diminishing excitement on XO, Bloodshot, and HW2 are a result of the takeover and the company trying to maintain output during the shakeup. Q&W and Ninja-K have maintained a really nice quality in the shakeup... Q&W especially, surprising me that it got even better even after the first arc's surprisingly good story.

I'm rooting for Illidge.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:12:31 am 
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It's a flop...not really any need to elaborate further as anyone who read it already knows how bad it sucked


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:20:24 am 
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WrathOfArmstrong wrote:
I think the diminishing excitement on XO, Bloodshot, and HW2 are a result of the takeover and the company trying to maintain output during the shakeup. Q&W and Ninja-K have maintained a really nice quality in the shakeup... Q&W especially, surprising me that it got even better even after the first arc's surprisingly good story.

I'm rooting for Illidge.


To me it's obvious what happened with those books. Dinesh and Warren have talked in interviews about the Valiant creative process about how they approach ongoings and how far ahead they are. They've said that they get very far ahead on new books up until about the third arc or end of the first year of story, they fly by the seat of their pants mostly after that and that crossovers are so intensive that they are down to the wire creative decisions. To me this fits perfectly with the quality drop:

X-O and Bloodshot droppped sharply in quality because Dinesh and Warren were gone and the book was already in the "fly by the seat of their pants" phase so there was no story with their oversight to publish for the new DMG Valiant. They DMG team had to oversee it and did a bad job.

Q&W and Ninja-k maintained because those books were in the Dinesh and Warren "very far ahead on new books" phase so DMG Valiant just had to finish the last bits and publish those books.

HW2 was a disaster because those events need Dinesh and Warren to be there every second right to the last "down to the wire' moment. Also, I'm pretty sure they made up a whole new story using only the premise that was announced...or maybe because those crossovers are so last minute there was nothing but the prelude part and the synopsis ready and everything else was decided by DMG. I mean lots of those choices in the story were things Dinesh and Warren not only wouldn't do but seem to actively avoid doing.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:40:56 pm 
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Flop. Didn't recover from the format change and loss of half the creative team.

Remember "VALIANT PRESTIGE format – a new form of deluxe packaging for Valiant’s most important standalone limited series and events!" This event didn't have it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:33:49 am 
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Flop.

I’ve already commented in the spoiler section discussion on the last issue, so I won’t repeat any of that here. But I will just say that I found this story to be a meandering, ham fisted mess that was a chore to read at best, and downright painful at its worst. With the exception of the Heiserrer prelude issue, which was great.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:56:09 am 
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
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grendeljd wrote:
Flop.

I’ve already commented in the spoiler section discussion on the last issue, so I won’t repeat any of that here. But I will just say that I found this story to be a meandering, ham fisted mess that was a chore to read at best, and downright painful at its worst. With the exception of the Heiserrer prelude issue, which was great.


I'll echo the Flop theme here, because it was.

I guess the thing that bothers me the most, all the things Heiserrer wrote went for not, or at best so very little. I think we all can agree that his writing was beautiful, and we all cared about the characters. We fell in love with Livewire almost instantly in Secret Weapons, and were all very excited to see where this was supposed to go. The mail in book and the zero issue, they're all for nothing, and that bothers me. Harbinger Renegade, Alpha, Solomon... All for nothing.

Sure, the book sucked, but a lot of great writing also went into the toilet.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:27:01 pm 
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TheeBaldMoose wrote:
grendeljd wrote:
Flop.

I’ve already commented in the spoiler section discussion on the last issue, so I won’t repeat any of that here. But I will just say that I found this story to be a meandering, ham fisted mess that was a chore to read at best, and downright painful at its worst. With the exception of the Heiserrer prelude issue, which was great.


I'll echo the Flop theme here, because it was.

I guess the thing that bothers me the most, all the things Heiserrer wrote went for not, or at best so very little. I think we all can agree that his writing was beautiful, and we all cared about the characters. We fell in love with Livewire almost instantly in Secret Weapons, and were all very excited to see where this was supposed to go. The mail in book and the zero issue, they're all for nothing, and that bothers me. Harbinger Renegade, Alpha, Solomon... All for nothing.

Sure, the book sucked, but a lot of great writing also went into the toilet.


Very good point. Thats an extra layer of Disappointment Condiment inside a *SQUEE* sandwich we all ate.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:24:44 pm 
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Flop for sure, Kindt knows it. I just seen him in Saskatoon.

I think this book was a victim of timing and I agree the new guys had to scramble just to get books on the self. I think this is why they printed Valiant High.

I really can't blame the new guys for it though, their work is still to come and I will judge them on that. Shadowman and Ninja-k are going great right now.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:27:32 am 
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hawkeyeps wrote:
[]Flop for sure, Kindt knows it. I just seen him in Saskatoon.


anything else to go with that?

You know, it would be nice if they went the Deluxe HC route and expanded the story with new pages. Just because something didn't work the first time, because it was rushed, doesn't mean it can't be salvaged. And I think it would go a long way to extending good faith between the new regime and us. It would also be a sign for the industry that they want quality books under their banner.

Fix it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:05:49 am 
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WrathOfArmstrong wrote:
You know, it would be nice if they went the Deluxe HC route and expanded the story with new pages. Just because something didn't work the first time, because it was rushed, doesn't mean it can't be salvaged. And I think it would go a long way to extending good faith between the new regime and us. It would also be a sign for the industry that they want quality books under their banner.

Fix it.

Nope.

Don't go adding new story content pages to deluxe editions, even if the original story could be 'improved' for it. I can guarantee that there's no quicker way to make the hardcore fans feel ripped off for having to buy an entirely new book containing a story that they already regard as lame for the sake of adding 6[arb.] new pages that allegedly 'fix' the story.

Awful, awful suggestion.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:15:23 am 
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Listen to my discussion with Jace on The Comic Source podcast tomorrow (Sunday, 30 Sept) as we get into HW II and Aftermath.

Will post the link, and yes, it is a hell of a discussion on this event. :thumb:

NOT to be missed!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:51:28 pm 
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DirtbagSailor wrote:
Listen to my discussion with Jace on The Comic Source podcast tomorrow (Sunday, 30 Sept) as we get into HW II and Aftermath.

Will post the link, and yes, it is a hell of a discussion on this event. :thumb:

NOT to be missed!


VERY excited to hear this!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:58:45 am 
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I’m not kidding, you should really listen to this and post your responses. Agree? Disagree?

Podcast is linked below.

https://lrmonline.com/news/episode-523/

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:13:32 am 
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DBS and I break down Harbinger Wars issue #4 and the Aftermath issue as well. What went wrong? Why did it go wrong and whose to blame? Where does Valiant go from here and specifically Livewire? Join us for the latest episode of valiant Sunday,

https://lrmonline.com/news/episode-523/


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:33:24 am 
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Shadowman99 wrote:
WrathOfArmstrong wrote:
You know, it would be nice if they went the Deluxe HC route and expanded the story with new pages. Just because something didn't work the first time, because it was rushed, doesn't mean it can't be salvaged. And I think it would go a long way to extending good faith between the new regime and us. It would also be a sign for the industry that they want quality books under their banner.

Fix it.

Nope.

Don't go adding new story content pages to deluxe editions, even if the original story could be 'improved' for it. I can guarantee that there's no quicker way to make the hardcore fans feel ripped off for having to buy an entirely new book containing a story that they already regard as lame for the sake of adding 6[arb.] new pages that allegedly 'fix' the story.

Awful, awful suggestion.


It's not an awful suggestion if you're assuming that the pages aren't' arbitrary. See how I mention 'quality'.

You'd rather have a lackluster story? This isn't film where they have to spend big bucks to reshoot scenes and reedit.

I don't think hardcore fans should feel ripped off that they'd try to fix something. I feel more ripped off currently. Now if the new pages don't' add anything--yeah sure, rip off. Issue 4 was a summary of what happened, not an actual story.

Someone mentioned Kindt knew it didn't work. So why not, in a show of good faith to fans, have him or someone else reevaluate it as a whole and create a definitive director's cut...because it feels like a lot got cut out. That's a PR move worth the cost if every fan is calling this crap. But they'll probably just brush it under the rug, which is how this probably ended up so bad to begin with.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:14:03 am 
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.

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WrathOfArmstrong wrote:
Shadowman99 wrote:
WrathOfArmstrong wrote:
You know, it would be nice if they went the Deluxe HC route and expanded the story with new pages. Just because something didn't work the first time, because it was rushed, doesn't mean it can't be salvaged. And I think it would go a long way to extending good faith between the new regime and us. It would also be a sign for the industry that they want quality books under their banner.

Fix it.

Nope.

Don't go adding new story content pages to deluxe editions, even if the original story could be 'improved' for it. I can guarantee that there's no quicker way to make the hardcore fans feel ripped off for having to buy an entirely new book containing a story that they already regard as lame for the sake of adding 6[arb.] new pages that allegedly 'fix' the story.

Awful, awful suggestion.


It's not an awful suggestion if you're assuming that the pages aren't' arbitrary. See how I mention 'quality'.

You'd rather have a lackluster story? This isn't film where they have to spend big bucks to reshoot scenes and reedit.

I don't think hardcore fans should feel ripped off that they'd try to fix something. I feel more ripped off currently. Now if the new pages don't' add anything--yeah sure, rip off. Issue 4 was a summary of what happened, not an actual story.

Someone mentioned Kindt knew it didn't work. So why not, in a show of good faith to fans, have him or someone else reevaluate it as a whole and create a definitive director's cut...because it feels like a lot got cut out. That's a PR move worth the cost if every fan is calling this crap. But they'll probably just brush it under the rug, which is how this probably ended up so bad to begin with.


Are you refering to dmg making a hard cover collection and re vamping the story some how to actuelly be good? Because if so that would mean they would have to sell it as a discount because Im not paying for their mistakes. Maybe they can exept the covers of the squee hw2 in return for a coupon.
Dmg has alot to makebup for and forking out m9re moneybis not an option for the long time fan.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:39:00 am 
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nonplayer wrote:
WrathOfArmstrong wrote:
Shadowman99 wrote:
WrathOfArmstrong wrote:
You know, it would be nice if they went the Deluxe HC route and expanded the story with new pages. Just because something didn't work the first time, because it was rushed, doesn't mean it can't be salvaged. And I think it would go a long way to extending good faith between the new regime and us. It would also be a sign for the industry that they want quality books under their banner.

Fix it.

Nope.

Don't go adding new story content pages to deluxe editions, even if the original story could be 'improved' for it. I can guarantee that there's no quicker way to make the hardcore fans feel ripped off for having to buy an entirely new book containing a story that they already regard as lame for the sake of adding 6[arb.] new pages that allegedly 'fix' the story.

Awful, awful suggestion.


It's not an awful suggestion if you're assuming that the pages aren't' arbitrary. See how I mention 'quality'.

You'd rather have a lackluster story? This isn't film where they have to spend big bucks to reshoot scenes and reedit.

I don't think hardcore fans should feel ripped off that they'd try to fix something. I feel more ripped off currently. Now if the new pages don't' add anything--yeah sure, rip off. Issue 4 was a summary of what happened, not an actual story.

Someone mentioned Kindt knew it didn't work. So why not, in a show of good faith to fans, have him or someone else reevaluate it as a whole and create a definitive director's cut...because it feels like a lot got cut out. That's a PR move worth the cost if every fan is calling this crap. But they'll probably just brush it under the rug, which is how this probably ended up so bad to begin with.


Are you refering to dmg making a hard cover collection and re vamping the story some how to actuelly be good? Because if so that would mean they would have to sell it as a discount because Im not paying for their mistakes. Maybe they can exept the covers of the squee hw2 in return for a coupon.
Dmg has alot to makebup for and forking out m9re moneybis not an option for the long time fan.


yes. I'd rather have a good book in my collection than have one that I never want to return to. I'd be interested in paying full price for a better version of HW2. Maybe I haven't been a fan long enough. Sorry for assuming other people would love to have a redo on this horrible mini...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:17:09 pm 
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I don't think a redo is a bad idea, per se. I am however more interested in knowing what the original plans for HW2 were, before they decided to change it. Unless a redo is based on the original idea I don't want anything to do with it.

I just want to read a round table discussion with Dinesh, Kindt, Simons, and Heisserer discussing what their original plans were and why they decided to change it and go in the direction they chose. Valiant likes to hype things up but I rarely see any afterward interview or thoughts on their products by creators. Give me some insight! We are only human and we make mistakes, reflecting on those mistakes goes a long way towards making sure things are not repeated.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:24:43 pm 
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WrathOfArmstrong wrote:
yes. I'd rather have a good book in my collection than have one that I never want to return to. I'd be interested in paying full price for a better version of HW2. Maybe I haven't been a fan long enough. Sorry for assuming other people would love to have a redo on this horrible mini...

Dude I'm sorry, but this is such an awful idea. Like 'nonplayer' said, I'm not paying for their mistakes. I would be P1SSED if I paid $30+ for the "revised" HC, after just spending $34 on the floppies, only to find out the "enhanced" story still sucks! I don't trust DMG, and you shouldn't either. As far as I'm concerned, they obviously had a hand in making HW2 s***, and other than that they've produced Faith: Dreamside #1, which was good. None of this should give you any reason to trust this company with "fixing" an already excessively sloppy event.

The event has happened. It's over. They put it out there. Let it be over so we can all move on. Don't invest any more manpower on this event. Take what you can, discard the rest, and go about making better comics.

Now if I didn't already have #0, this offer might be a little more enticing. I could also go for a $10 TPB or maybe a $20 HC (both including #0, obviously). Granted, I would wait to see what you guys thought of it first, but then I would most likely get it if it was that cheap.

kinggirlfriend wrote:
I don't think a redo is a bad idea, per se. I am however more interested in knowing what the original plans for HW2 were, before they decided to change it. Unless a redo is based on the original idea I don't want anything to do with it.

I just want to read a round table discussion with Dinesh, Kindt, Simons, and Heisserer discussing what their original plans were and why they decided to change it and go in the direction they chose. Valiant likes to hype things up but I rarely see any afterward interview or thoughts on their products by creators. Give me some insight! We are only human and we make mistakes, reflecting on those mistakes goes a long way towards making sure things are not repeated.

I think I would literally pass out if I looked at my phone one morning and saw that this was announced.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:46:22 am 
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TheFerg714 wrote:
WrathOfArmstrong wrote:
yes. I'd rather have a good book in my collection than have one that I never want to return to. I'd be interested in paying full price for a better version of HW2. Maybe I haven't been a fan long enough. Sorry for assuming other people would love to have a redo on this horrible mini...

Dude I'm sorry, but this is such an awful idea. Like 'nonplayer' said, I'm not paying for their mistakes. I would be P1SSED if I paid $30+ for the "revised" HC, after just spending $34 on the floppies, only to find out the "enhanced" story still sucks! I don't trust DMG, and you shouldn't either. As far as I'm concerned, they obviously had a hand in making HW2 s***, and other than that they've produced Faith: Dreamside #1, which was good. None of this should give you any reason to trust this company with "fixing" an already excessively sloppy event.

The event has happened. It's over. They put it out there. Let it be over so we can all move on. Don't invest any more manpower on this event. Take what you can, discard the rest, and go about making better comics.

Now if I didn't already have #0, this offer might be a little more enticing. I could also go for a $10 TPB or maybe a $20 HC (both including #0, obviously). Granted, I would wait to see what you guys thought of it first, but then I would most likely get it if it was that cheap.

kinggirlfriend wrote:
I don't think a redo is a bad idea, per se. I am however more interested in knowing what the original plans for HW2 were, before they decided to change it. Unless a redo is based on the original idea I don't want anything to do with it.

I just want to read a round table discussion with Dinesh, Kindt, Simons, and Heisserer discussing what their original plans were and why they decided to change it and go in the direction they chose. Valiant likes to hype things up but I rarely see any afterward interview or thoughts on their products by creators. Give me some insight! We are only human and we make mistakes, reflecting on those mistakes goes a long way towards making sure things are not repeated.

I think I would literally pass out if I looked at my phone one morning and saw that this was announced.




I'll just say one more thing . My comment is based on the presumption that they could fix it and it would be better.

So I won't repeat myself anymore. I guess I just am not explaining myself well. Sorry again for mentioning this. Sorry for optimism in the DMG era, or was it a demand that they hold themselves accountable to the fans?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:14:36 pm 
Personal shoe-shopper for Atom!
Personal shoe-shopper for Atom!
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 5:20:12 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Southwest Desert
Valiant fan since: 2016
Favorite character: Gilad
Favorite title: Wrath/Imperium/Britannia
Favorite writer: Venditti/Dysart/Van Lente
Favorite artist: Raul Allen
They can fix this by slapping a DEAD DROP logo on it. Tell the world they messed up and put the wrong logo on it. It should have been called DEAD DROP 2. Going forward all copies of HW2 will have the DEAD DROP 2 logo instead. All sloppy like this too. It somehow makes it easier to ignore.

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